These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

[Winter] EW Frigate Rebalance

First post
Author
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2012-08-09 13:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
:Updated with new stats as of August 14th. Details below as well as here:

Insert tired and overused Game of Thrones reference here.

Good news everyone! Now that we have Inferno 1.2 out the door we're going to start posting threads for stuff we are working on for the winter. My first set is the T1 EW frigs (Crucifier, Griffin, Maulus, Vigil). We're giving them the tiericide treatment which means that since they were formerly low-tier they are getting very significant buffs.

Our vision for these ships is that they become commonly used by newer players to take useful roles in fleets of many sizes. These changes are not being made in a vaccum, we expect to release them alongside a lot more balance changes in the Winter that should include the T1 EW cruisers and some tweaks to certain ewar mechanics themselves (among other things).

The Crucifier and Vigil are being given strong roles towards longer range disruption, and the fact that the Griffin and Maulus are more medium range oriented is intended and part of the overall environment change.

We also realize that these changes will make the current problems with EAFs even more obvious, and we're putting a lot of thought into them as well.

Like all the posts we make in this forum, these ships are a work in progress and we're looking for as much feedback as possible.

Without further ado, here's what we've got so far (last updated on August 14th with the changes posted here):

CRUCIFIER:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level

Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+1), 3 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 27 PWG (+2), 235 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(-24) / 400(+25) / 350(+21)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 180s (-7.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 350 (+68) / 3.35(-1.09) / 1064000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+10) / 45(+40)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64km (+16.5) / 540 (+100) / 6
Sensor strength: 14 Radar
Signature radius: 38 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 265 (+100)


GRIFFIN:

Frigate skill bonuses (unchanged):
15% Bonus to ECM Jammer strength per level
10% Bonus to ECM Jammer cap use per level

Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+1), 2 L (+1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 24 PWG (-1), 240 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+9) / 250 / 250
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (-5)/ 135s (-52.5s)/ 1.815 (+0.482)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 325 (+38) / 3.5(+0.14) / 1056000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km (+5) / 500 (+100) / 6 (+1)
Sensor strength: 17 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 42 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 260 (+100)


MAULUS:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Sensor Damp effectiveness per level
10% reduction in Sensor Damp capacitor use per level

Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 4 M (+1), 3 L (+1), 2 turrets
Fittings: 28 PWG (+3), 230 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(-13) / 350(-1) / 400(+71)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 275 (+25)/ 150s (-37.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 375 (+69) / 3.25(-0.626) / 1063000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+10) / 30(+20)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64.5km (+14.5) / 520 (+100) / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 275 (+100)


VIGIL:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level

Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 26 PWG (+1), 225 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 410 (+57) / 3.22 / 1080000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6
Sensor strength: 12 Ladar
Signature radius: 34 (-10)
Cargo capacity: 250 (+100)

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-08-09 13:45:53 UTC
when can we expect the missile boats?

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#3 - 2012-08-09 13:53:02 UTC
Increased drone velocity is actually harmful, since it makes the drones overshoot.

Also for gods sake, fix ecm before you start buffing ecm ships.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#4 - 2012-08-09 13:54:57 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Increased drone velocity is actually harmful, since it makes the drones overshoot.

Also for gods sake, fix ecm before you start buffing ecm ships.


I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing.
I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways.

As for the second part, I have plans. Twisted

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

mkint
#5 - 2012-08-09 14:03:46 UTC
damps are still useless. I'd still mock rookies who think flying a maulus is a good idea in any way. Fly a combat boat, or cross-train griffin.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-08-09 14:15:09 UTC
Got to question the point of the Maulus drone speed bonus. There's a reason you virtually never see drone navigation computers on PvP ships, and it's because Hobs and Warriors II are already fast enough.

What might be nice is a bonus to the range of the damps.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#7 - 2012-08-09 14:43:22 UTC
I'll let everyone else do the necessary 'OH GOD ECM IS SO ********' posts. How about two damp bonuses on the maulus?

The cap bonus on the griffin doesn't really make sense to me. Damps use more cap than jammers, I believe, and painters use a similar amount. Is it supposed to be especially cap stable, or would giving it anything else make it more OP than you'd like?

Also, optimal bonus on painters when they are 45 optimal 90 falloff base? Maybe the ranges should be reworked, idk.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#8 - 2012-08-09 14:59:45 UTC
We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.

The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Mira Luhtanen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-08-09 15:04:05 UTC
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:
What might be nice is a bonus to the range of the damps.

yes please
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2012-08-09 15:05:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.

The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.


You could give the griffin missile range instead of ecm strength?
Cameron Zero
Sebiestor Tribe
#11 - 2012-08-09 15:07:20 UTC
Quote:
VIGIL:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level

Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6
Sensor strength: 12 Ladar
Signature radius: 36 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 250 (+100)



This will see the Vigil's speed bonus removed, right? Cry Guess it's time to say good bye to the fastest T1 frigate in the game and go looking for something else that can play with the Interceptors. ;p

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. …"

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-08-09 15:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.

The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.


I understand the fear of making the Maulus too good if it were to receive an optimal range bonus to sensor dampers. The drone bonus is unattractive though.

May I suggest a cap usage reduction to sensor dampers instead? They are relatively cap intensive modules and such a bonus would help running a MWD together with them.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#13 - 2012-08-09 15:09:58 UTC
Cameron Zero wrote:
Quote:
VIGIL:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level

Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6
Sensor strength: 12 Ladar
Signature radius: 36 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 250 (+100)



This will see the Vigil's speed bonus removed, right? Cry Guess it's time to say good bye to the fastest T1 frigate in the game and go looking for something else that can play with the Interceptors. ;p


The new Slasher isn't quite as fast as a level 5 Vigil, but I think you'll still like it.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Mira Luhtanen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-08-09 15:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Luhtanen
Cameron Zero wrote:
This will see the Vigil's speed bonus removed, right? Cry Guess it's time to say good bye to the fastest T1 frigate in the game and go looking for something else that can play with the Interceptors. ;p


In fairness, we do have the Slasher now.

e: FOZZIE!
PinkKnife
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-08-09 15:12:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Increased drone velocity is actually harmful, since it makes the drones overshoot.

Also for gods sake, fix ecm before you start buffing ecm ships.


I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing.
I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways.

As for the second part, I have plans. Twisted


So then, you're saying don't fit any of those new Drone Navigation Computer II's on it?

Can we fix drones in general while we are it?
Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-08-09 15:12:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Fleet Warpsujarento
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.

The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.


These ships aren't meant to do damage. That's why the other frigs in this buff don't have any kind of damage bonus, they have two bonuses to their ewar.

Giving the Maulus a bonus to damps would bring it in line with the others.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#17 - 2012-08-09 15:13:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus.
Could be worse. Like an optimal range bonus to the most useless ewar module.

Target painters do not improve damage all that much in larger engagements. It's not even enough to make annoying interceptors at 100km hitable by large artillery, and that would be a pretty niche role. And contrary to other ewar, it's not useful to spread out, so once you have 3-4 painters in the whole fleet, any others are not only of "little use", but literally useless.

What exactly do you see as the role of the Vigil in fleets? I can see useful uses for the three other frigates where a rookie can join a fleet and affect things, but the Vigil?
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
The Mockers AO
#18 - 2012-08-09 15:14:50 UTC
Cameron Zero wrote:
Quote:
VIGIL:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level

Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6
Sensor strength: 12 Ladar
Signature radius: 36 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 250 (+100)



This will see the Vigil's speed bonus removed, right? Cry Guess it's time to say good bye to the fastest T1 frigate in the game and go looking for something else that can play with the Interceptors. ;p



It looks like they built half of the bonus into the hull...

CCP consider giving the full bonus up to 440m/s?? Pirate

Especially with the loss of a low slot and that their "EWAR" bonus is in no way defensive, you're really leaving the vigil a bit under whelmed.

CCP Ytterbium mentioned something at Fanfest panel of "Minmatar EWAR, Target painting, REALLY?!" - Are we going to see a move away from TP as main Minmatar EWAR in the near future?


Where I am.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#19 - 2012-08-09 15:16:16 UTC
I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time)

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Mira Luhtanen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-08-09 15:20:27 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
May I suggest a cap usage reduction to sensor dampers instead? They are relatively cap intensive modules and such a bonus would help running a MWD together with them.

good idea

Tracking Disruptor II: 1.80 cap/s
Target Painter II: 2.40 cap/s
ECM - Racial Jammer II: 2.85 cap/s
Remote Sensor Dampener II: 3.60 cap/s
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II: 3.95 cap/s

CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time)

In my experience target painting can be really annoying when trying to speed tank in pve, because stacking penalties don't seem to apply correctly to NPC painters.

hint.
123Next pageLast page