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Planned lowsec sentry "fix" - you guys serious?

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Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#781 - 2012-08-22 13:28:06 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
o/ Hello again pod people.

Just wanted to stop by and give you a brief update, after speaking with CCP Greyscale about the gate gun changes in great detail, he's once again assured me and the CSM that this gate gun idea was just an idea he was toying with, and not something that is definitely in the pipeline for development. After the flood of player feedback as well as my own urging for him to reconsider this, its no longer an idea that is being pushed forward anyways. I'll be monitoring his work on GCC, sec status, and crimewatch in general as we move futher into Winter, but as of right now the gate gun idea has stalled.

The minute that status changes - I'll let the community know as soon as possible so we can continue "the resistance". But in the meantime, there's not much to fight against because this doesn't appear to be moving past the idea stage, thanks to all who have spoken up.


I knew at least one of my votes on your wasn't misplaced. Have a like.
Idris Helion
#782 - 2012-08-22 13:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Idris Helion
When gate-camping (or spawn-point camping) is effective, that's a good indicator of bad game design. That's true in every game, not just EVE.

Many people say that combat in EVE happens around bottlenecks, and that's true...but it's also why fights in EVE are far rarer than they should be. Gate-camping in any game gives rise to unbalanced gameplay because the gate-campers are always advantaged over the gate-runners. There's rarely an incentive to run a gate in EVE because the reward isn't worth the risk nine times out of ten (or 90 times out of a hundred, more like). The only time I'll run a gate into lowsec any more is just to be able to transit to null on those rare occasions when I need to.

Mission-running is a good example of why gate-camping hurts the game. Mission runners have to PVE-fit their ships, but will get killed at the gates because they need a PVP-fit to survive the gate-camp. It's inefficient to carry both sets of gear and re-fit. Also, mission-runners are almost always running solo or with an alt; they can't withstand a superior force, which is almost always what they'll be facing at hisec-lowsec border gates. So: it's just not worth it to go into lowsec.

Even on the pirate side, there are better ways to get into good fights. Bubble the warp-channels between gates. Put a cloaked ship at a celestial and combat-scan the area for miners or mission-runners. This whole idea that gates are the only place to find opponents is nonsense.

Here's the question I would ask the gate-campers: if your intent were to prevent people from traveling from hisec out to lowsec/null, how would your behavior be any different? Gate-camps restrict travel. Hence, the population of lowsec falls. Hence, fewer opportunities for pew. If you want more pew, open up the gates. Plenty of hisec industrialists would travel to low if the rewards were much greater or the risk less, but there's no way a industrialist with minimal combat training would go to lowsec. Null is way safer, and has better resources anyhow.

If you want more combat in lowsec, stop camping the gates. If you're going to keep camping the gates, stop complaining.

Also: yes, I think the gate-gun changes are useless since they won't really do much to change player behavior.
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#783 - 2012-08-22 13:58:11 UTC
Guess how I know you know nothing about how the game works.

Quote:
Even on the pirate side, there are better ways to get into good fights. Bubble the warp-channels between gates. Put a cloaked ship at a celestial and combat-scan the area for miners or mission-runners. This whole idea that gates are the only place to find opponents is nonsense.
Idris Helion
#784 - 2012-08-22 15:10:11 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Guess how I know you know nothing about how the game works.

Quote:
Even on the pirate side, there are better ways to get into good fights. Bubble the warp-channels between gates. Put a cloaked ship at a celestial and combat-scan the area for miners or mission-runners. This whole idea that gates are the only place to find opponents is nonsense.


Ah, the tears of a gate-camper.
Idris Helion
#785 - 2012-08-22 15:17:12 UTC
Here's a better way of phrasing the issue.

The basic question is: "Do you, as a resident of low security space, want more players to come into low security space so you can shoot at them (or make friends with them, or admire them from afar)?"

If the answer is "yes", how does gate-camping advance that goal in any way?
#786 - 2012-08-22 15:21:15 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
o/ Hello again pod people.

Just wanted to stop by and give you a brief update, after speaking with CCP Greyscale about the gate gun changes in great detail, he's once again assured me and the CSM that this gate gun idea was just an idea he was toying with, and not something that is definitely in the pipeline for development. After the flood of player feedback as well as my own urging for him to reconsider this, its no longer an idea that is being pushed forward anyways. I'll be monitoring his work on GCC, sec status, and crimewatch in general as we move futher into Winter, but as of right now the gate gun idea has stalled.

The minute that status changes - I'll let the community know as soon as possible so we can continue "the resistance". But in the meantime, there's not much to fight against because this doesn't appear to be moving past the idea stage, thanks to all who have spoken up.


Ah, good. Greyscales Failwatch is a monstrous pile of stupid, and any small victories against aspects of it are very welcome.
Brave Collective
#787 - 2012-08-22 15:33:43 UTC
Hello,

Gatecamping is wrong, annoying, prevents newbies from getting to low/null and make a living there. I think that's the main reason why.

If you want to fight, start an actual roam, instead of camping gates 23,5/7.
And jump to an other gate from time to time.

This will not impede with normal fighting if you have some actual PvP experience. Gatecamping requires no experience, just patience, and we all know that waiting for something to happen without much risk involved is much like mining, which is carebearing, which is EVIL AND MUST BE EXTERMINATED AT ALL COSTS.

Less yappin', more zappin'!

#788 - 2012-08-22 15:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Idris Helion wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Guess how I know you know nothing about how the game works.

Quote:
Even on the pirate side, there are better ways to get into good fights. Bubble the warp-channels between gates. Put a cloaked ship at a celestial and combat-scan the area for miners or mission-runners. This whole idea that gates are the only place to find opponents is nonsense.


Ah, the tears of a gate-camper.
Get a clue on actual game mechanics.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

#789 - 2012-08-22 15:38:13 UTC
Will these new Sentry Guns be sold in the NeX? Love to get one for my Nightmare... Twisted

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#790 - 2012-08-22 15:43:45 UTC
Singoth wrote:
Hello,

Gatecamping is wrong, annoying, prevents newbies from getting to low/null and make a living there. I think that's the main reason why.

If you want to fight, start an actual roam, instead of camping gates 23,5/7.
And jump to an other gate from time to time.

This will not impede with normal fighting if you have some actual PvP experience. Gatecamping requires no experience, just patience, and we all know that waiting for something to happen without much risk involved is much like mining, which is carebearing, which is EVIL AND MUST BE EXTERMINATED AT ALL COSTS.


Hi, this issue has already been resolved, but if you had been reading the posts from people who actually live in low-sec you would have known that this will do nothing to deter gate campers and would instead hurt people who are engaging in small-gang fights, almost all of which happen on gates because that is where people are.
Idris Helion
#791 - 2012-08-22 16:11:08 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Singoth wrote:
Hello,

Gatecamping is wrong, annoying, prevents newbies from getting to low/null and make a living there. I think that's the main reason why.

If you want to fight, start an actual roam, instead of camping gates 23,5/7.
And jump to an other gate from time to time.

This will not impede with normal fighting if you have some actual PvP experience. Gatecamping requires no experience, just patience, and we all know that waiting for something to happen without much risk involved is much like mining, which is carebearing, which is EVIL AND MUST BE EXTERMINATED AT ALL COSTS.


Hi, this issue has already been resolved, but if you had been reading the posts from people who actually live in low-sec you would have known that this will do nothing to deter gate campers and would instead hurt people who are engaging in small-gang fights, almost all of which happen on gates because that is where people are.


...and that's where the people are because the gate-campers prevent them from entering the system. You're causing the very problem you're complaining about. Stop camping the gates, and you'll get more opportunities for pew elsewhere in the system. If you're too lazy to scan down or chase opponents, well, it's not really pew you want: it's shooting fish in a barrel.
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#792 - 2012-08-22 16:12:39 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Singoth wrote:
Hello,

Gatecamping is wrong, annoying, prevents newbies from getting to low/null and make a living there. I think that's the main reason why.

If you want to fight, start an actual roam, instead of camping gates 23,5/7.
And jump to an other gate from time to time.

This will not impede with normal fighting if you have some actual PvP experience. Gatecamping requires no experience, just patience, and we all know that waiting for something to happen without much risk involved is much like mining, which is carebearing, which is EVIL AND MUST BE EXTERMINATED AT ALL COSTS.


Hi, this issue has already been resolved, but if you had been reading the posts from people who actually live in low-sec you would have known that this will do nothing to deter gate campers and would instead hurt people who are engaging in small-gang fights, almost all of which happen on gates because that is where people are.


...and that's where the people are because the gate-campers prevent them from entering the system. You're causing the very problem you're complaining about. Stop camping the gates, and you'll get more opportunities for pew elsewhere in the system. If you're too lazy to scan down or chase opponents, well, it's not really pew you want: it's shooting fish in a barrel.


No, see, that's the part you aren't getting. People are at gates because gates are the most likely places where people are likely to be. If I am doing a small gang roam, I'm not hopping from planet to planet hoping to find people, I'm going to gate to gate hoping to run into another small gang.
Together We Solo
#793 - 2012-08-22 16:39:43 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
o/ Hello again pod people.

Just wanted to stop by and give you a brief update, after speaking with CCP Greyscale about the gate gun changes in great detail, he's once again assured me and the CSM that this gate gun idea was just an idea he was toying with, and not something that is definitely in the pipeline for development. After the flood of player feedback as well as my own urging for him to reconsider this, its no longer an idea that is being pushed forward anyways. I'll be monitoring his work on GCC, sec status, and crimewatch in general as we move futher into Winter, but as of right now the gate gun idea has stalled.

The minute that status changes - I'll let the community know as soon as possible so we can continue "the resistance". But in the meantime, there's not much to fight against because this doesn't appear to be moving past the idea stage, thanks to all who have spoken up.



This is great news. Has there been any mention of the "what happens in lowsec stays in lowsec" idea in the crimewatch redo?
Shadow Cartel
#794 - 2012-08-22 16:52:48 UTC
glad that this is just an idea and not in development. As a pirate I wouldn't want it to be standard practice to have frigs on gates tackling everything.

The sentries as they are now are fine. If I can catch everything on gate no one will ever come to losec for PI and other non-pvp sutff, and those camps everyone is afraid of are easily avoidable and quite rare (in my region at least).

I think unique losec resources are the way to make losec more interesting.
Shadow Cartel
#795 - 2012-08-22 17:01:46 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Singoth wrote:
Hello,

Gatecamping is wrong, annoying, prevents newbies from getting to low/null and make a living there. I think that's the main reason why.

If you want to fight, start an actual roam, instead of camping gates 23,5/7.
And jump to an other gate from time to time.

This will not impede with normal fighting if you have some actual PvP experience. Gatecamping requires no experience, just patience, and we all know that waiting for something to happen without much risk involved is much like mining, which is carebearing, which is EVIL AND MUST BE EXTERMINATED AT ALL COSTS.


Hi, this issue has already been resolved, but if you had been reading the posts from people who actually live in low-sec you would have known that this will do nothing to deter gate campers and would instead hurt people who are engaging in small-gang fights, almost all of which happen on gates because that is where people are.


...and that's where the people are because the gate-campers prevent them from entering the system. You're causing the very problem you're complaining about. Stop camping the gates, and you'll get more opportunities for pew elsewhere in the system. If you're too lazy to scan down or chase opponents, well, it's not really pew you want: it's shooting fish in a barrel.


No, see, that's the part you aren't getting. People are at gates because gates are the most likely places where people are likely to be. If I am doing a small gang roam, I'm not hopping from planet to planet hoping to find people, I'm going to gate to gate hoping to run into another small gang.


Have to agree with tiberious here, if you think gangs in lowsec routinely search every planet they pass for targets then youre delusional. The only times we fight at planets are because we attacked infrastructure such as a POCO or POS, we baited the other guys there or the fight was as a result of us dropping into an engagement that was already going.

Im going to repeat this because it doesnt seem to be sinking in, pvp in lowsec mostly happens on gates because gates are natural chokepoints, its where we can catch our targets most easily, wether that target is a carebear in a hauler or another fleet we want to fight with our roaming gang. It has jack **** to do with gatecamps, even though those happen for a lot of the same reasons.


Oh and Hans - many thanks for following up on this, its much appreciated.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

#796 - 2012-08-22 17:05:01 UTC
So then, just thinking outside the box here but where do real life gangs fight one another? Well, not at bridges and tunnel entrances necessarily, they fight at the contested areas of their turf. Therefore it stands to reason that if they want fights off gates then they need to implement a turf mechanic for pirate gangs. Yes, I know CCP wants to rid the game of pirates and they have done so much to try, but I don't think it's possible because the mindset of a pirate player is to rebel against anything that smacks of conformity and rules. That being said ... CCP, if you can't beat us JOIN US. Yes, join us in our pirate mindset and see that we are here to stay and will continue to play our way to spite you if we must- remember this is a sandbox after all and not a litterbox. We've come here to play just like the next person and our style of play- though unwelcome by some (possibly many) is still a style - so it is a valid play style by virtue of existing, hence it must be allowed inclusion in a game that claims to allow the players to do as they please.

My point is that if you give the pirates the same amount of sand, proverbial same amount of sand (you get what i mean right?), as you give to every other play style you will more than likely see an upturn in subbing and re-subbing former players who might otherwise feel the game is too restrictive of their goal to do whatever the hell they want to because they are an immortal space capsuleer with access to awesome starships and big gunz. I'm not gonna say anything more than this:

If you get inside the head of a pirate, and conceive of better ways to allow them to do their thing (some piratey things dammit) in the space they have claimed as their own turf you will have happier players, more 'goodfights' , and a scarier game that will encourage more people to join in and try to slice off their jagged chunk of the fortune and glory. Isn't that the idea of EvE Online? Don't we all agree that what we dream this game is when we are not actually playing it is far better that what is becomes when we log on? It's not our fault that is the best thing we've got on the planet Earth to play, but it ain't quite there yet- It's gonna take CCP widening their eyes to look at what is needed where and make it happen (so do that CCP- we deserve at least that much, don't we?)

TL;DR - empassioned plea for some sexy Pirate lovin
Caldari State
#797 - 2012-08-22 17:13:15 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
People are at gates because gates are the most likely places where people are likely to be.


When I lived in the god forsaken midden that El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de los Angeles de Porciuncula has become, there were places on the freeway where traffic always slowed down. Why?

Because people always slowed down there.

It's chicken or egg stuff (a little more complicated because that one has a definite answer), but I guarantee you that gun towers at the Puente Pause would have hustled things along a little and improved life for most.
Negative Ten.
#798 - 2012-08-22 17:27:42 UTC
Nice news Hans and thankyou CCP Greyscale for listening to community feedback
#799 - 2012-08-22 17:51:43 UTC
As a low sec industrialist, I too have to agree that holding off on these changes is for the better. Depending on how they were tuned, if they made it easier for pirates to make quick ganks in frigates before the damage ramped up... it would get much more dangerous for anyone other than another pvp ship to travel in low.

On the other hand, if they made the guns too powerful and discouraged piracy at all, the potential flood of other indy corps in the region would make it start to feel like high sec.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

#800 - 2012-08-22 18:13:19 UTC
I to would like to know about these low sec warp bubbles we have not been using because we are lazy. Roll

Thank you Hans for hearing the yarr.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

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