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Selling Subscriptions and other game items.

First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#21 - 2012-07-04 13:57:40 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
A new law has been passed in the EU that confirms the right to sell digital property and software subscriptions.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2012/07/04/curia-digital-distribution/1

Will CCP be amending their RMT policy to conform to the new legislation since their server is inside the EU? Does the new act even cover EVE's (PLEX) as it is a 30 day licence to play the game?

Before haters cry EULA, I'll remind you that EU regulations go before CCP regulations and it will be CCP who would have to amend their EULA to conform to EU rules not the other way round.

If we are guaranteed the right to sell our digital subscriptions (PLEX) by EU law surely PLEX is about to hit the roof?

EDIT


Removed details about in game items as new act does not cover digital items just digital subscriptions and licences.



It's not illegal to "sell your character" (ie: sell the access to the account with the character) right now.

However, CCP are under no obligation to honour that sale if they don't want to. In addition they explicitly reserve the right to terminate an account at any time for any reason that pleases them, and this new bill does not change that.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Cebraio
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2012-07-04 13:59:16 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
I have a question of my own, would this apply to games with a one-time payment method? (Such as, Guild Wars)

I don't know about guild wars licensing method, but this should apply for software like Diablo 3 and others, where it's currently not possible to resell them, because the publishers don't want that.

Basically Valve, EA, Blizzard and others which require you to link bought games to an account must provide a method to unlink them, so we can sell them. I asked Blizzard to unlink D3 from my battle.net account. They refused two weeks ago. We'll see about that, I guess.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#23 - 2012-07-04 14:00:43 UTC
ITT OP flags himself as someone to watch as a potential RMTer.

In real world news: your account is not a license. It's an account.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#24 - 2012-07-04 14:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
I have a question of my own, would this apply to games with a one-time payment method? (Such as, Guild Wars)
Possibly, but it will depend on how (if at all) they deal with the separation between software and server access. You'll have to scour their terms and contract texts for that.

They're far more likely to be subject to the ruling than EVE is, though (largely because the likelihood of it applying to EVE is somewhere in the region of nil). The largest headaches will be for the online stores — Steam, PSN, XBLA et.al. — which must now implement a method to transfer purchases if they haven't already done so.
Gun Gal
Dark Club
#25 - 2012-07-04 14:07:51 UTC
Dear basement dwelling lawyers.

You pay for the right to play eve, you do not own anything.

Now get out of that basement
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
#26 - 2012-07-04 14:19:56 UTC
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
Ya Huei wrote:
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
It is their game, if they decide not to allow it nor implement it, who can force them?


It's my dope, who can force me not to sell it?

Think before u post.

Also, this ruling is about licensed software, not subscription based games.


Think before u reply, OP is obviously speaking of selling plexes, which is against the EULA. Even if it was to cover services such as game time CCP is free to ban you for selling it, even normal subscriptions not based on plexes.


So you are saying that even if EU law would state (which it doesn't) that in game assets are owned by the account owner, and can thus be sold to a 3rd party, that CCP can get around this by putting a line in their EULA ?

This would put the terms of service in direct conflict with local law. I don't think that things work that way.
Mark Androcius
#27 - 2012-07-04 14:23:41 UTC
I can make this really simple, you have to compare it to a house.
European rules on buying and selling houses, states that you can only buy and then sell land/house every 5 years, without pating taxes ofter the profit.
If however, you buy and sell houses for a living, you have to pay taxes over the profit you make.

CCP CAN NOT make selling accounts and items legal, as it CAN NOT strictly follow how much you sell for real life cash, meaning either you or CCP, will get a nice huge tax bill, stating whatever amount of euro's, the european gevernment "guesses" you have made on selling stuff and accounts.
radix29
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-07-04 14:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: radix29
When you buy a PLEX you transform the RL money in an in-game item that is owned by CCP.

The PLEX, your ships and your characters are owned by CCP not by you.
The CCP allows you to use them in the Game but not out of the game (you cannot transfer the PLEX back in RL money).

Selling a PLEX for RL Money means selling an item that belongs to someone else (CCP) (stealing). Also you would neeed to pay TAX for it as it is an RL Money income.

The In game items (PLEX too) do not have an real world value as all of them are owned by CCP
Potrondal Morrison
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-07-04 14:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Potrondal Morrison
OP:
If you were to hire a prostitute for 1 hour, do you think that you have the right to sell the prostitute for that hour you have rented her? I am sure she would disagree if you tried, but give it a bash and see what happens and see how long it takes her to terminate your contract with her. CCP are no different.
BTW. I am in no way saying that CCP is a woman of dubious repute........And i am not talking with experience of said strumpets.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-07-04 15:44:04 UTC
Potrondal Morrison wrote:
OP:
If you were to hire a prostitute for 1 hour, do you think that you have the right to sell the prostitute for that hour you have rented her? I am sure she would disagree if you tried, but give it a bash and see what happens and see how long it takes her to terminate your contract with her. CCP are no different.
BTW. I am in no way saying that CCP is a woman of dubious repute........And i am not talking with experience of said strumpets.

but if I had bought the prostitute as my slave I would be allowed to sell her as I please?

.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Legion
#31 - 2012-07-04 15:54:10 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Potrondal Morrison wrote:
OP:
If you were to hire a prostitute for 1 hour, do you think that you have the right to sell the prostitute for that hour you have rented her? I am sure she would disagree if you tried, but give it a bash and see what happens and see how long it takes her to terminate your contract with her. CCP are no different.
BTW. I am in no way saying that CCP is a woman of dubious repute........And i am not talking with experience of said strumpets.

but if I had bought the prostitute as my slave I would be allowed to sell her as I please?


Word on the street is that the North is about to ban that.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#32 - 2012-07-04 16:13:42 UTC
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
It is their game, if they decide not to allow it nor implement it, who can force them?


What the company wants to do does not come before law.

Though this ruling doesn't really apply to an eve subscription. I'd be more interested in how it applies to games where it's more along the lines of creating a unique account and then using the CD key to authenticate your game (via your account). How will companies/second hand buyers have to deal with the "you cant use that key its already been used by an account" type situations considering this ruling?
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#33 - 2012-07-04 16:20:59 UTC
Steam are going to hate this regulation as they really don't want people swapping or selling games.
Sierra Skyy
Mining Missioning And Cargo Security Services
#34 - 2012-07-04 17:05:55 UTC
Ya Huei wrote:
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
It is their game, if they decide not to allow it nor implement it, who can force them?


It's my dope, who can force me not to sell it?

Think before u post.

Also, this ruling is about licensed software, not subscription based games.

ROFL!!!

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2012-07-04 17:11:33 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Steam are going to hate this regulation as they really don't want people swapping or selling games.
Don't they already have a mechanism in place to do that?
Danfen Fenix
#36 - 2012-07-04 17:22:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Steam are going to hate this regulation as they really don't want people swapping or selling games.
Don't they already have a mechanism in place to do that?


Only gifts (and possibly items? ) afaik. Not games with a (CD) key activated to an account P
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#37 - 2012-07-04 17:28:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Steam are going to hate this regulation as they really don't want people swapping or selling games.
Don't they already have a mechanism in place to do that?


They have the gift system, but it's different - either you buy the game for yourself, or you buy it as a gift (which I believe you can later gift to yourself if you so choose) but you can only do one or the other, and only once in the case of giving the gift. You can't regift a gift, etc. I'm sure they'll come up with a clever way of circumventing this law for their products if one does not already exist (something like rental laws?)

For GW2, I would think that the software itself can be resold but that gives you little when your key has already been tied to an account so you'd still need a new key. As it's not out yet it's tough to comment.

For us, as has been stated above, I believe our subscription model is unaffected by this law. PLEX is a flavour name - you can redeem it for game time, or for AUR, or sell it on the EVE market for ISK, but it's in no way a software license, nor does it allow you to actually fly spaceships (or planes for that matter) outwith EVE. Warning, the coffee in this container may be hot Cool

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Danfen Fenix
#38 - 2012-07-04 17:38:12 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Steam are going to hate this regulation as they really don't want people swapping or selling games.
Don't they already have a mechanism in place to do that?


They have the gift system, but it's different - either you buy the game for yourself, or you buy it as a gift (which I believe you can later gift to yourself if you so choose) but you can only do one or the other, and only once in the case of giving the gift. You can't regift a gift, etc. I'm sure they'll come up with a clever way of circumventing this law for their products if one does not already exist (something like rental laws?)

For GW2, I would think that the software itself can be resold but that gives you little when your key has already been tied to an account so you'd still need a new key. As it's not out yet it's tough to comment.

For us, as has been stated above, I believe our subscription model is unaffected by this law. PLEX is a flavour name - you can redeem it for game time, or for AUR, or sell it on the EVE market for ISK, but it's in no way a software license, nor does it allow you to actually fly spaceships (or planes for that matter) outwith EVE. Warning, the coffee in this container may be hot Cool



So selling game time for money is still against the law, thats understandable.

How about selling off the whole account though ? P Does that £5 you pay on account activation class as the license (and so, allowing the account to be sold under the new law, but not any further game time. That they must buy themselves. ? )
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#39 - 2012-07-04 17:43:25 UTC
Danfen Fenix wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Steam are going to hate this regulation as they really don't want people swapping or selling games.
Don't they already have a mechanism in place to do that?


They have the gift system, but it's different - either you buy the game for yourself, or you buy it as a gift (which I believe you can later gift to yourself if you so choose) but you can only do one or the other, and only once in the case of giving the gift. You can't regift a gift, etc. I'm sure they'll come up with a clever way of circumventing this law for their products if one does not already exist (something like rental laws?)

For GW2, I would think that the software itself can be resold but that gives you little when your key has already been tied to an account so you'd still need a new key. As it's not out yet it's tough to comment.

For us, as has been stated above, I believe our subscription model is unaffected by this law. PLEX is a flavour name - you can redeem it for game time, or for AUR, or sell it on the EVE market for ISK, but it's in no way a software license, nor does it allow you to actually fly spaceships (or planes for that matter) outwith EVE. Warning, the coffee in this container may be hot Cool



So selling game time for money is still against the law, thats understandable.

How about selling off the whole account though ? P Does that £5 you pay on account activation class as the license (and so, allowing the account to be sold under the new law, but not any further game time. That they must buy themselves. ? )



They could just claim the $5 as an administration and processing fee and thus avoid any issues.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#40 - 2012-07-04 17:44:58 UTC
Eve is a rental model. Like apartments, you pay every month for an apartment, but you never end up owning it. Our characters are the same way, we only rent them from CCP. If anything it would be legal for CCP or Blizzard to sell our characters to others, when we ar done with them. That would cause on uproar, and they would lose business, so they propably wouldn't do it.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

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