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Incarna/WiS Disappointment

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Pix Severus
Empty You
#1 - 2012-06-27 22:11:27 UTC
Is anyone else as disappointed as I am about how the whole Incarna/WalkinginStations thing turned out?

I left the game for a while after Tyrannis was released and came back to Eve recently (a couple of weeks ago). I was looking forward to going for a stroll in a station or two, spamming /dance, playing some games, hitting up the bar staff, etc. Instead I find I'm stuck in a small room, forever alone.

A new player to the game would question: "Why such an involved 3D character creation process when there's nothing in-game to actually DO with said creation?" This was an issue before Incarna with the old character creation process too, going through it all just to snap a portrait.. Well, what we have now is just a 3D, movable portrait.

Anyway, I did some digging to find out why it ended up this way, and it turned out that a bunch of players had a hissy-fit when Incarna was released, which forced CCP to take a different direction, thus leaving the whole thing as an unfinished mess. How unfortunate. Maybe now that the whole thing has calmed down somewhat, it is time to finish it? Get WiS rolled out fully, the code is probably there, waiting, I don't know if you figured out how to handle choke-points like certain Jita stations, but I (and I'm sure many others) would love the extra functionality for our 3D characters, especially those who spend all day playing the market.

Reasons why you should finish what you started ASAP:
- It could bring more new players to the game
- It could bring some older players back
- Having 3D characters that can interact with each other in stations could spawn a whole new wave of Eve machinima videos like Clear Skies, which is free advertising
- More fun and depth to the game for roleplayers
- People would have more reason to buy all those clothes you've been releasing
- People like me who have a 3D/uncanny-valley fetish will get to molest NPCs and other players

What some of you are going to say:

"Eve is a game about spaceships, keep it about spaceships and only spaceships."
- Having a 3D avatar is just natural progression, after all you play a capsuleer in this game, not a lump of space metal. Even the X series of games (which I'm sure most of you are familiar with) is taking this direction.

"There are more important things to fix first, like inventory, and the fact that other people can play this game differently to me."
- Sure, there are a lot of things which also need fixing in this game, but for new players this would be the most noticable fix, and for CCP it could be potentially the most profitable.

"You just want to jerk it in stations."
- True, at the moment I have to right click on the pilot in the chat window, show info, view portrait, view full body, and even then they might be flat-chested or something which turns me off. I'm currently sat in Jita right-clicking your portraits and "enjoying myself", and there's nothing you can do about it.

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Citizen Smif
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-06-27 22:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Citizen Smif
I actually agree with most of what you're saying. I'd love to have what was originally intended when Incarna was released.. but as other people are bound to say - not at the expense of other stuff. Lots of people had been waiting years for the WiS expansion, and they ended up getting a tiny box cell! The rage is still fairly fresh I sense, give it another year of so when people get bored of patchwork.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#3 - 2012-06-27 22:21:17 UTC
Pix Severus wrote:
a bunch of players had a hissy-fit

End of current and future debate.
If they try and do anything innovative beyond internet spaceships, the game dies.
Pipa Porto
#4 - 2012-06-27 22:22:35 UTC
We're here for spaceships. CCP was on a path that had an 18month gap in spaceship iteration.

That's bad, mmmkay.

If you want to dance, the command works really well in WoW.

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-RubyPorto

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-06-27 22:23:03 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Pix Severus wrote:
a bunch of players had a hissy-fit

End of current and future debate.
If they try and do anything innovative beyond internet spaceships, the game dies.


There was no innovation... that was half the problem Straight

Also involuntary alpha testing guinea pigs Evil

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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#6 - 2012-06-27 22:23:16 UTC
I think if safe to assume the vaste majority of EvE Online players want CCP resources on FiS.

The Tears Must Flow

Pix Severus
Empty You
#7 - 2012-06-27 22:30:29 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
I think if safe to assume the vaste majority of EvE Online players want CCP resources on FiS.


The vast majority of vocal players, sure. Most Eve players probably never post on the forums.

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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-06-27 22:36:41 UTC
By a 'bunch of players' you mean tens of thousands of accounts which caused the first ever slump in subs in EVEs existence that lost CCP millions of dollars and a significant decrease in CCP staff which is why we now have to wait over a week for a GM response.

Sorry but the players have spoken: WIS is cool, but not at the expense of the rest of EVE.

I dunno where the OP is getting his information, but it is a fact that WIS lost CCP millions of dollars while expansions focused on improving the base game and the war themed expansion gained CCP those millions back.
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#9 - 2012-06-27 22:44:52 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
By a 'bunch of players' you mean tens of thousands of accounts which caused the first ever slump in subs in EVEs existence that lost CCP millions of dollars and a significant decrease in CCP staff which is why we now have to wait over a week for a GM response.

Sorry but the players have spoken: WIS is cool, but not at the expense of the rest of EVE.

I dunno where the OP is getting his information, but it is a fact that WIS lost CCP millions of dollars while expansions focused on improving the base game and the war themed expansion gained CCP those millions back.

This. Suck it up, buttercup. WiS is in the shitter where it belongs.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#10 - 2012-06-27 22:50:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Walking in stations still holds great promise, I hope that it gets finished one day. After 3+ years of promises and good looking presentations it rolled out with a dingy $10 hotel room and a RL priced clothing store. Combined with the "Greed is Good" leak, a refusal from CCP to answer any questions regarding the future of the NEX store with respect to "golden ammo", an arrogant dismissal from Hilmar and some badly thought out devblogs it turned into a steamroller of anger.

In protest against what many saw as the death knell for Eve (yes Eve was dying, again) players gathered in Jita and Amarr and proceeded to pour DPS into the statues there, Jita population was capped, Amarr was slow as molasses and a spectacular lightshow was produced and shown to the world on youtube, faecesbook and in the gaming press. It wasn't just the hisec carebears, there were congas in Jita consisting of people from all over Eve, alliances that have been at war for years were ignoring war targets in favour of something much more important than pewpew.

TL;DR if CCP had released it in a better state than they did, with micro-transactions instead of Gucci prices in the NEX, and had laid to rest the players concerns immediately then it would have been seen as the future and not the end.

FiS > WiS but WiS would be nice eventually, especially if we can stab other peoples characters in the face, in stations, over a game of cards or a hooker. The robot chicken Star Wars Cantina scene was pretty much bang on.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-06-27 22:53:12 UTC
Its hard to understand what happened because you weren't here, but there were a ton of issues with Incarna.

It was 7 months after Incursion, and they only had one captains quarters done. After allegedly already working on it for some time. It took a full year for all the captains quarters to be added. If 4 small rooms take a year, how long would 4 racial stations take?

They tried to force expensive micro transactions on us, after players told them they didn't want micro transactions in a pay game.

And finally, there were a couple internal leaks. One was a internal paper discussing all kinds of things they could charge extra real money for; ships, ammo etc. And the second was a leaked email from Hilmar (CCP CEO) saying he didn't care what his customers thought.
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
#12 - 2012-06-27 22:55:05 UTC
I remember most of the rage was over three things:

The leaked "greed is good" article form the internal CCP newsletter, implying that, via the Nex store, Eve would become Pay To Win.

The leaked e-mail from the CCP CEO telling everyone at CCP that the Incarna was a wonderful expansion, and the small amount of protest form the players was expected and meaningless.

That Incarna contained far less content than expected, despite the months of effort put into it, along with the small amount of work concurrently done to the spaceship side.

What I think we need now is balanced development of both in space and in station content. The resource division should be along the lines of player preference. If players would spend 10% of their time (averaged over all players) doing WiS stuff, then 10% of new feature development effort should be devoted to WiS.

An odd way to do this is allow every player to vote with their subscription money. Say $1 of each months subscription goes to new feature development (the rest is bug fixing, feature iteration, server maintenance, rent on the building, paying the cleaning crew, and so on). Each player can decide how their $1 is allocated, and that is what CCP spends it on. That way if you do not like WiS, you can be sure none of your subscription money is spent on it.

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Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#13 - 2012-06-27 22:57:49 UTC
Totally happy with how the Incarna debacle turned out. I never wanted WiS, I still don't. If I change my mind, I'll go play Star Trek Online.

John Hancock

Gaellia Bonaventure
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-06-27 22:58:13 UTC
I for one would like to see WiS fully implemented along with the expanded gameplay options which could result from this. But the way it was rolled out, along with the limited access we now have, pretty much guarantees that's all we will ever see.

Bring your possibles.

Pix Severus
Empty You
#15 - 2012-06-27 23:05:24 UTC
Ok, my source didn't go into this much detail about it, I should've gone deeper though. It seems it was a complete clustertruck of events that CCP handled very poorly, and it wasn't just a few players having their "time of the month", so I retract that.

I would still like it to be finished sooner rather than later though, but I think CCP are probably playing this out very carefully, to avoid any similar backlash in the future.

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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-06-27 23:09:48 UTC
WiS has gone back to the drawing board with a smaller team so they can actually figure out what they should have figured out 6 years ago at the start of the project: how to introduce meaningful, interesting gameplay to the whole mess, rather than throwing some pretty but content-free graphics in our faces as a means to sell monocles and jackets for real-world currencies.

Pix Severus wrote:
I was looking forward to going for a stroll in a station or two, spamming /dance, playing some games, hitting up the bar staff, etc. Instead I find I'm stuck in a small room, forever alone.

Serious question: why are you not doing these things in Second Life or some other such 'social gameplay' environment?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Pipa Porto
#17 - 2012-06-27 23:10:30 UTC
Pix Severus wrote:
Ok, my source didn't go into this much detail about it, I should've gone deeper though. It seems it was a complete clustertruck of events that CCP handled very poorly, and it wasn't just a few players having their "time of the month", so I retract that.

I would still like it to be finished sooner rather than later though, but I think CCP are probably playing this out very carefully, to avoid any similar backlash in the future.


You did see all the incarna items released without incident this patch, right?

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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
#18 - 2012-06-27 23:12:26 UTC
Supposedly there is a "Team Avatar" (5 people) working on something, and a Dev blog about it that is finished, but its publishing got delayed by the UI mess.

The few Dev comments we have gotten is it will involve cooperative game play in a hostile environment. Something like we saw in one of the trailers with people in space suits exploring ruins. I presume part of the "cooperative" part is having protection so your ship does not get stolen while you are walking about.

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Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-06-27 23:15:14 UTC
A bunch of folks had a temper tantrum. that alliance main was GOON and their pets. A few here an there. Then the NEX store along with several emails leaked from CCP staff and or CEO, protesting in Jita and the masses were placated by the GODs of New Eden as I giggled fully expecting what happened to appease the children. Many Eve players burned up their computers with the new tweaking to the graphics. Combination of who knows what happened but when you overclock for no reason you deserve a computer sitting there as the blue smoke escapes and from what i heard it was mostly those with Nvidia cards. No idea what was done to resolve this. personally i do not care.

But for WiS, CCP could make more money if they already had Deployed it already but instead they made empty promises in FanFest concerning it or was it a 10 sec blurp on it that can ran over with the FW new tweaks.

The steps CCP should have taken
1> Keep its big mouth shut
2> play with it on their servers fixing issues
3> prepare NEX store ONLY with fashion items
4> Remember STEP 1!
5> Make sure DEVs have diffrent computers built out of their own pockets or something.
6> have ALL the DEVs play with new toy on THEIR server for a few weeks (Vacation time and drunk DEVs. WOOHOO!!!)
7> Compare notes go over issues
8> Remember STEP 1! and WHATEVER YOU DO...DO NOT TELL CSM ABOUT THIS.
9> Rework what needs to be fixed
10> Repeat steps 6 through 9 as needed then move on.
11> Drop the new toy into the public Test Server and now you can drop the bomb on the CSM.

I wonder how difficult it is to get a job there
Pix Severus
Empty You
#20 - 2012-06-27 23:18:00 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Serious question: why are you not doing these things in Second Life or some other such 'social gameplay' environment?


Because I want to play with spaceships too. Why can't I do both? I have friends in this game, I don't have friends who play WoW or Second Life.

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