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FW: I-hub and system upgrades

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CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2012-05-10 16:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
UPDATED THREAD 31/08/2012 HERE.

This is a discussion about system upgrades received when donating LP into the FW infrastructure hub, and how to make them more appealing after Inferno. Please refer to the FW blog for more details.


At the moment they are:

  • Upgrade level 1 - 10,000 LPs required: +1 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 10% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 10% reduction in market / contract broker fees

  • Upgrade level 2 - 25,000 LPs required: +2 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 20% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 20% reduction in market / contract broker fees

  • Upgrade level 3 - 45,000 LPs required: +3 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 30% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 30% reduction in market / contract broker fees

  • Upgrade level 4 - 70,000 LPs required: +4 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 40% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 40% reduction in market / contract broker fees

  • Upgrade level 5 - 100,000 LPs required: +5 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 50% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 50% reduction in market / contract broker fees

  • Buffer - 100,000+ to 150,000 LPs


* Slots are only given for stations that already have that given activity before upgrade. For instance: a station only having science slots will not receive extra manufacturing slots.

It's a start, but nothing fancy. We would like to iterate on that after Inferno, and we have already heard some good comments, but your input is welcome.


Some ideas, not necessarily in any order:

  • Bring back the cyno jammer, if polished enough to be shot down by neutral third parties. Fanfest taught us it is a very tricky move, so we want to hear from all interested parties here
  • Move station deny docking from being automatic when a system is captured to something that only happens when the enemy upgrade a system to level X
  • Provide science, manufacturing time reduction bonuses to further encourage industry in low-security space


Speaking of which, how do you feel about neutrals having access to your precious upgrades? As explained in the blog, the original goal was to promote an industrial backbone in low-security space, but you may feel differently.



Thanks for your time!
gfldex
#2 - 2012-05-10 16:41:13 UTC
Did you think about a bonus to sec status gain? FW happens in lowsec after all.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

gfldex
#3 - 2012-05-10 16:53:30 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Speaking of which, how do you feel about neutrals having access to your precious upgrades? As explained in the blog, the original goal was to promote an industrial backbone in low-security space, but you may feel differently.


Industry needs customers. Therefore any form of restrictions are a contradiction to provide incentives for lowsec industry. As long as the sales tax is as low as it is now, there is simply no reason to take the risk to move good into FW lowsec, because you are never more then 15 jumps to the next highsec system that can act as a local hub.

Since you can buy ISK with a PLEX but you can't buy screen time [1] it's travel time that get's you customers not pricing.

[1] That's the time a player spends in from of the screen actually watching a client. Bots are so popular because they get you stuff/ISK with very little screen time. For the same reason mining scales better then running missions.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
Wild Geese.
#4 - 2012-05-10 17:56:01 UTC
Quote:
Speaking of which, how do you feel about neutrals having access to your precious upgrades? As explained in the blog, the original goal was to promote an industrial backbone in low-security space, but you may feel differently


I would say it depends upon the upgrades. For the bonus slots, I would say that is fine. If the upgrades grant a bonus to materials wastage or production time, limit that to the militia only. There's not a great deal of incentive to invest hard-earned LP so a bunch of neutrals can reap the rewards.

The problem is that right now there is very little reason to conduct industry in Low-sec, because you take on a great deal of additional risk for next to no additional reward.The issues that I see:
a) The infrastructure (i.e. stations) is just as good, if not better in high-sec. Even with a few extra slots, there is absolutely no reason
b) industrial-scale logistics is far, far more dangerous. You've got to be pretty ballsy or pretty stupid to try bringing a freighter into lowsec, and t1 industrials aren't go to fare a lot better. There appear to be a few jump freighters around, but I doubt they are enough, and you can't support serious industry out of blockade runners.
c) Personal and corp-scale logistics from high-sec is fairly easy. It's generally only a few jumps to friendly high-sec, so people just go shopping there.

So, there isn't really a powerful reason to conduct industry/commerce in lowsec right now, and plenty of good reasons to stay in high-sec. Upgrades which deal with some of the above mentioned problems would go a long way towards encouraging FW industry.
T'san Manaan
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-05-10 18:29:53 UTC
FW agents in the stations should be linked directly to the upgrade level. Level1 upgrade gets level 1 agents, Level 2 gets level 2 agents all the way up to 5 (yes add level 5 FW missions). Make the missions go to the nearest contested space and add to the victory points for capturing that system.

Also Incentives should be added to industrialists in the war zone. Something like faster production times, reduced mineral cost, lower taxes, less waste on reprocessing, faster/cheaper research and copying of BPOs etc.

Cyno Jammers at Level 5.

Thanks for looking into FW. You guys rock Cool
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
#6 - 2012-05-10 19:12:49 UTC
One important thing I think you've missed or forgotten about:

What is the point of upgrading systems without labs (or factories) or even stations?

For example at first glance Fliet and Deven would look like decent systems to upgrade, having stations but on closer inspections without a factory or research and only a refinery there really is no point upgrading these systems when Heydelies is 1 or 2 jumps away. Clone costs and tax rate is scant reason when only 1-2 jumps away is a much better candidate for upgrades - you see the issue?

Then there's Abune, Indregulle, Oinisaiken, Hirri, Hikkoken etc and the multitude of other stationless systems - what encouragement or benefit is there to upgrade these systems?

None other than as some cumulative contribution effect to overall faction control?
- Well that will not be enough of a reason IMHO

Perhaps some future iteration could consider upgrades for these systems that:

1. Improve PI, allow larger customs offices with corp hangars, or some other PI related bonus.
2. Upgrades providing some strategic resource - for example allow the majority LP donator to perhaps choose it to spawn gas clouds for combat booster production or some other unique resource similar to the COSMOS contellations.
3. Allow players to build their own homes / structures - I'm thinking like detaching some functions of a POS, but more pirate-den style with more personalised functionality and aesthetics.

I'll post more later but this was just my first reaction to these upgrades. Cheers.


Kurai Okala
Okala Corp
#7 - 2012-05-10 19:27:19 UTC
I only have a little experience with FW but I am very happy to see it getting lots of attention. Thank you also for all the communication.

Quote:
•Move station deny docking from being automatic when a system is captured to something that only happens when the enemy upgrade a system to level X


Maybe I am missing something obvious but what would be the reason for doing this? To add additional incentive for upgrades? If so, I think there are a lot of other/better options for that since tying docking rights to upgrade level breaks immersion and feels gimmicky to me. Also, wouldn't that make docking rights change more frequently with systems being upgraded and then having their upgrades stolen? If so, I think that frequent changes of "can dock/can't dock" would be annoying.

If you're going to make docking rights variable, then I think it should be tied to sovereignty like you've currently planned. It is more straight-forward so new players will more easily understand this mechanic which will be so important everytime they cross enemy lines.
Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-05-10 19:44:38 UTC
one of the things that makes Null sec attractive is jump bridges.

alternate (Restricted Jump Gates) jump travel routes exclusive to the winning faction would encourage trade (getting around gate camp) for the sale of goods in low sec. Potentially moving gate camps to other locations.


Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-05-10 19:53:37 UTC
Move station deny docking from being automatic when a system is captured to something that only happens when the enemy upgrade a system to level X ....

I think this needs to be done in 3 levels

Level 1
Corps that are soly military the faction prevent docking, Leaving Opposite Faction Stations and Non Military Stations open
Level 2
Call corps that are pro Faction and Non Military Stations are close. Only those of the Opposite faction are left open
Level 3
All stations are closed to opposite faction.

This would represent the block aid of a Station. and stations loyal to the enemy faction will hold out as long as possible, while the Pro-Miliia would be looking for any reason to shut down access to enemy traffic.

This would also make it easier to defend or reclaim home systems. Scalling up the difficulty of controlling a larger portion of space. Also adds a little character, role play with in faction warfare. More emersion.

The taxes on these station may also be effected by the person's alignment to a faction.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#10 - 2012-05-10 20:49:25 UTC
I personally believe that an individual militia should not make the determination as to docking rights for other players. Other players can have a right to dock or not based on their own behaviour. Now let me explain.... P

I'm a member of the Minmatar militia. If someone (Pirate) decides to shoot at me, why not have them take a Minmatar Republic standings hit the same way they would if they shot Republic NPCs? After a certain amount of standings loss, they would lose docking rights to stations in .4, .3, .2, and eventually even .1. Someone who is nuetral or positive in standings would be able to dock and use the upgrades.... People far more versed in industry then myself can make determinations as to the pros or cons of the upgrades that systems have. But if we give them some elbow room from pirates that wouldn't hurt. To make this idea work we might need a bigger low sec as well as pirate factions that could reclaim systems... Twisted

Other upgrade ideas:
Better rat bounties
Better belts.
Better complexes and sites.
Seriously - give us an upgrade lite version of what Null sec has.
Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-05-10 20:55:17 UTC
I can't like zarnak's idea enough. Lets add actual consequences to the game, so you can't just shoot at faction NPCs or militia members all day and still dock in their systems like nothing happened.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#12 - 2012-05-11 04:00:58 UTC
Bonuses has to be more directly tied to the war effort ..

Requires one or two hours (or a DT) for invested LP to clear the red tape and take effect but it is in the pool as it were from the moment the button is pressed.
1. Station lockout. First order of business after taking control militarily is to prevent enemy access to local resources.
2-3. Repair and Clone costs. Still in the process of pacifying the area so troops needs proper support.
4-5. Manufacture/Harvesting/Research bonus of some sort. System deemed "safe" and local business needs incentives to come back in.

That way a system holder who has upgraded his system gets a longish grace period in which he holds the upper hand (enemy can't dock) and removes the already discussed "ignore until last hour and blob the crap out of system" defence because well enemy will have reships available locally at that point .. It is the incentive to actually burn ones LP on system that CCP so carelessly forgot and a solution to the horrible idea of the arbitrary lockout that no one outside CCPs offices likes.

- No buffer .. when hostilities break out the effects are felt immediately in the civilian population .. feel free to read any history book you'd like if you don't believe me. Make the 4-5 bonus good enough to want to aggressively protect it and all is well.
- No cyno-jammer .. capitals have always been a part of LS, supers have not. Change the way supers/cyno's behave when in LS rather than arbitrarily shutting everything out.
* Spool-up on all cynos.
* Numerical limit to what can come through to a LS cyno (ex. 10 Capitals or 5 Supers) with cyno-gens prohibited on capitals.
* Removal of immunities when in LS.
* Prohibition of bridges into LS

Those three combined would allow LS to take care of business against the knee-jerk drops .. meticulously planned drops would still be devastating but I am pretty OK with that .. planning/organization > all.
Julius Foederatus wrote:
I can't like zarnak's idea enough. Lets add actual consequences to the game, so you can't just shoot at faction NPCs or militia members all day and still dock in their systems like nothing happened.

Makes sense for the militia stations, but for all the 'neutral' (read: NPC) corps who have stations in area not so much .. business is business. Were it to be implemented then station locations should be looked at to create "pockets" where hostile entities could never dock and thus act as kill zones to use against them.
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
#13 - 2012-05-11 09:40:12 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Upgrade level 5 - 100,000 LPs required: +5 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots

  • I don't see this being much of an incentive or benefit as:
    - Even at max upgrade you only get enough extra slots for the equivalent of half of one sci/industry character.
    - Manufacturing and PE slots are usually easy enough to find in high/low sec already.

    Would be much more attractive if the lab slots received a bonus to their research time (like a POS lab) or for manufacturing (and to make things interesting) + 1 to ME of BPO/BPC being used per upgrade level.

    Fear God and Thread Nought

    Julius Foederatus
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #14 - 2012-05-11 14:23:58 UTC
    Veshta Yoshida wrote:

    Makes sense for the militia stations, but for all the 'neutral' (read: NPC) corps who have stations in area not so much .. business is business. Were it to be implemented then station locations should be looked at to create "pockets" where hostile entities could never dock and thus act as kill zones to use against them.


    Business is never business when you've got several battalions of marines occupying your station. System ownership means just that, not system nominal control.
    Ahazu Sagam
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #15 - 2012-05-11 15:13:48 UTC
    There are several problems with your current upgrade system. Some changes are quite bad ( i realy wanted to use a different word here) and to be honest i expected more. I would prefer a delay of this changes (whole FW stuff not just this) to give you more time to work on it, there is no need to pressure yourself with this random date. I hope i can speak for everybody when i say people wouldnt mind, if you delay stuff for a few weeks to do it right/better in the first place. Here we go:


    The first problem is that you dont encourage people to upgrade system. The reson is pretty simple, 2 of them are useless due to the current state of the game. The third one, medical clone cost reduction, is nothing fancy as well, but at least something to start with.

    Problem number two. Level 2 is just a better version of level 1, level 3 is just a better version of level 2,... That is just uncreative/bad game design, as you (some CCP dev's) recently discovered and you reacted accordingly (ship rebalance). Wouldnt it be better to be like this instead:
    level 1: you want to have this in as many systems as possible
    level 2: you want to have this in the majority of you systems
    level 3: you want to have this in some systems
    level 4: you want to have this maybe in 3 or 4 systems
    tbc.

    The third problem are stations, more precisely the lack of stations. You aren't gaining anything in non station systems. Splitting the whole system up into two parts, one for station systems and one for the others, would make it more complicated in the first place. But it would be easier to deliver well balanced system bonuses.

    The last problem for now is security. Your HUB can store 150k LP. A plex drains 5k/ 8,75k/ 12,5k/ 15k LP (minor/standard/major/unrestricted). This results into this: you can drain the highest upgrade in less than one hour (if you are alone!) and you can drain the whole HUB in less than 6 hour's (stacking of plexes or unrestricted plexes are even ignored in this calculation). Why would you upgrade your system when you can lose your upgrades that fast. There are two solutions for this problem: the inferior solution would be to reduce the LP drain, the better solution would be to increase the cost of all system upgrade. A navy BS costs 600k LP upgrading your system to its maximum 150k LP. Thats a serious inconsistency, especially when upgrading is considered as team stuff and not as a new from of "i want a corp just for myself".

    Because bitching alone does not change anything; possible system upgrades (s - station system, n - non station system):

    level 1:
    -(s) reduced reapair costs (30%) for your milita
    -(s) denies access to enemy agents
    -(n) increased bonty on pirate npc's

    level 2:
    - (s) reduced medical clone costs (50%) for your milita
    - (s) allows the creation of jump clones, not based on standing, for you milita
    - (n) reduced fuel consumption for your milita POS's (like in 0.0)

    level 3:
    - (s) removes access to station for enemys and neutrals with standing below -2.0 to your faction
    - (s & n) allows cynojammers to be onlined at milita POS's (they should need LP as fuel)

    level 4:
    - (s & n) reduced material costs for production (5%)
    - (s & n) reduced waste from reprocessing and refining (5%)

    level 5:
    - buffer

    Im pretty sure some people want stuff like super cap production and jump bridges as well in low sec. I think this would be the wrong way to go. Supers do not belong into low sec, the lack of countermeasures there indicates that. And jumpbridges; look what happend in 0.0 space, people became lazy and fat and FW space isnt that big, you can go from one end to the other in less than one hour.



    Thanks to the person that did this "You have one previously saved draft for this forum/topic ", you saved me from writing this again.
    Zarnak Wulf
    Amarrian Vengeance
    Team Amarrica
    #16 - 2012-05-11 15:28:56 UTC
    I would love to have reduced repair costs. I can't even begin to list the times I've had to eat those to get my ship back into the fight.
    Deen Wispa
    The Mjolnir Bloc
    Shadow Cartel
    #17 - 2012-05-11 17:21:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
    Some ideas;

    Improved PI upgrades would be nice. Perhaps more output per level.
    Reduced cost in reprocessing and refining.
    Reduced cost in repair
    More payout per rat per level
    More grav site spawns

    Bonuses to science and research slots would be a huge buff to lowsec inhabitants however you need to add more science slots then. But if you do, the problem then becomes that FW pilots don't want to pour in LP into a station that others end up using before they will. So there has to be a mechanism for allowing FW pilots (and preferably the primary donaters of LP) to have access to the slots first.

    I liked this idea;

    Quote:
    Move station deny docking from being automatic when a system is captured to something that only happens when the enemy upgrade a system to level X


    I don't like lockouts because it would be unfair for say the Gallente militia to roam into enemy space and be hunted by pirates/neutrals who can dock but we can't.

    High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

    Fidelium Mortis
    Minor Major Miners LLC
    #18 - 2012-05-11 17:35:09 UTC
    The manufacturing bonuses are nice and all but I don't think it would be the primary attraction at least for people that are currently in FW. You still have some major issues with logistics in low sec that need to be worked out, for instance most of your mineral resources would have to be imported into low sec.

    Station upgrades would be nice, in particular reduced repair costs, clone insurance, jump clone facilities, mission agents, and reduced market fees.

    For station lockouts, I'm still not sold on the idea of a complete lockout, but would rather like to see some reduced access to system services - perhaps the degree of access can be modified by a NPC corps standing with the militia.

    System bonuses to FW owned POSs might help drive the desirability of upgrading systems without stations.

    ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon

    Deen Wispa
    The Mjolnir Bloc
    Shadow Cartel
    #19 - 2012-05-11 17:49:39 UTC
    Madbuster has a great idea for escalating lockouts;

    Quote:
    Another idea:

    Wouldnt it be more useful to upgrade systems like this:

    Level 1: 25% Reduction in Marketorders, Contracts, Jumpclones, Repaircosts etc.
    Level 2: Enemy cant use Agents in Station
    Level 3: Enemy cant use Services in Station
    Level 4: Enemy cant dock in Stations
    Level 5: Sov holder can Use Cynojammers on their POS

    So that means people have a chance to get in their ships by plexing a system down a bit and arent fully locked out when sov changes. I think this will encourage pvp more then people having locked out permanently and they wont bother coming to that system

    High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle5
    #20 - 2012-05-12 04:37:44 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
    There have been many good suggestions, especially the ones tying upgrades to station lockouts.

    As for nuetrals having access to upgrades.... don't like it. They did nothing to get the upgrades. They should not reap any rewards.
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