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Missiles not equal Bombardment.

First post
None ofthe Above
#41 - 2012-03-25 17:30:59 UTC
Thelron wrote:
I agree with the idea of just coming out and giving *both* sides of a true split-system ship (i.e. Merlin) bonuses, I don't like the idea of making all of them into dual-system ships though (able to go all-launcher or all-turret). Yes, it means you need more skills to fully utilize the ship, but each race is *supposed* to be working several skill sets and it's only *really* getting T2 onto ships that's significantly more skill-intensive, so I don't really agree about the "hurts new players" bit, at least as long as there are other options (if any ship moves to more of an either/or for caldari, it should be the Condor, anyway). If anything, it'd best to encourage newer pilots to fully develop a fleet's capabilities anyway, especially if they do a good job making all of the races equally capable of a given "major" role (within that race's character, of course...).

For ships like the Ferox and Rokh, I'd rather see them keep the launchers (especially if the nighthawk isn't going to be swapped to use the drake as a base... which IMO isn't a bad idea if they can do it without royally screwing over people who do the inventing) as they add a bit of interest. Bonus the ships for the guns (just a little more attractively perhaps) but if someone finds a reason to use the launchers, good on them. Similar with the turret slots on things like ravens and caracals... sure they're *mostly* wasted but if they don't cause problems, leave 'em. (And if there's some system of balance where the total hardpoint count is blindly influencing bonus/grid/etc. allotments... that's probably what should be dropped)

Agreed. I wasn't intending to make all the Caldari ships Hybrid or Turret. Was just addressing the split ones.

Naga was a special case since since it was originally designed as a missile boat and some folk where pretty upset at the last minute switch.

One other hull that could possibly use it is the Cormorant (currently split 7 turret 1 launcher), currently the weakest destroyer, IMHO.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Andrea Griffin
#42 - 2012-03-25 21:05:25 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Andrea Griffin wrote:
I'm going to be the grump here that happens to LIKE the split weapon system on the Merlin. Hybrid ships deal a fixed damage type. Kinetic and Thermal. [...] However, with something like the Merlin, I at least have the option of sticking EM or Explosive rockets into the launchers.
There are two challenges to this howeve

* Splitting the hull bonuses (or just bonusing one of them) just frankly sucks and makes the hull suboptima
* It increases the skill challenge, making the hull harder to master. requiring knowing two different weapons systems makes the hull less useful for those younger players

Second one is probably fine to just keep in mind, but not really try solve. I think we can live with some hulls taking more of a commitment to train into.

The split bonus, however, is remarkably easy to solve. When setting up the bonuses for a split weapons system ship simply double the weapons bonus and give the ship bonuses for both weapons systems.
It's true that the Merlin isn't particularly newbie-friendly - to get the most out of the ship you need to train small hybrids and related support skills and rockets with related support skills. But I think that's okay; it adds some depth to the game and it rewards players who are willing to broaden their skill set.

The only real downside is that there isn't a viable "other" T1 frigate for a gun-centric Caldari pilot to fly. We have the Kestrel for rockets, which isn't fantastic, but it is still an option. Hopefully the Big Ship Rebalancing Event will fix this though.

You're also totally correct with your analysis: Right now, split weapons systems are pretty "blah" overall - not because of the concept, but because of the hard line "only two bonuses" for a T1 hull, for example. This leads to one weapons system being the effective one, while the other is relegated to a "eh" role and, in larger ships, usually just replaced with energy neutralizers.

Case in point: Cyclone. Hardly anyone uses those missile slots; they're always full of neuts instead. I bet some of you didn't even know the Cyclone HAD missile slots. : >

For a split weapons ship, BOTH weapons should be effective and attractive, otherwise one system is traded for neuts/nos or ignored completely so that you can fit a heavier tank or larger versions of the primary weapon type.

Hopefully, with the destruction of tiers, we'll also see some flexibility with ship bonuses. Give the ship a role, then give it what it needs to accomplish that role effectively. If CCP is willing to be flexible and a little creative we may see more split weapons ships (HAM / Pulse Laser Khanid ship, anyone?) that are effective and fun to fly. After all, variety is the spice of life.

As an example, cut back the optimal range bonus on the Merlin a bit and add a slight damage or RoF bonus to the rockets. I'd be pretty happy with that.

Then there is the issue of weapons upgrades being suboptimal. I could stick a MagStab on my Merlin, but it would only affect half of my weapons. But I'm not sure that is entirely bad - after all, split weapons systems have more flexibility and can more easily adapt, even if it just means I can change damage types with my secondary weapons system. Every little bit helps.

Speaking of flexibility - I am pretty annoyed that someone decided it would be a great idea for tracking disruption to affect missiles (this was mentioned during FanFest). One of the nice things about the Merlin is that, under TD pressure, it can still fight back a little bit with the launchers. One of the unique, albeit slight, advantages of the Merlin ripped away so that we can have a more bland, sterile, homogenized, and quite frankly boring combat environment. Roll

But that's a rant for another thread.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#43 - 2012-03-25 22:09:05 UTC
They better not pidgin hole caldari into just snipining. If they make all missile boats into long range bombardment with **** tank they better sure as hell make it so the hybrid boats excel at close range combat.

The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-03-25 23:42:52 UTC
I just want to vouch for the "give split weapon system ships bonuses for both weapon systems" line of thought. It's one of those "so stupidly obvious, why wasn't it done already?" kinda things.

Also, lol @ ships with a bunch of turret slots and one launcher slot. Like, really? Really, really? Who thought that one up?
Terminal Insanity
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2012-03-25 23:47:53 UTC
Aranakas wrote:

4. Delayed DPS

CCP needs to have missiles just step in line with the other ships.

Agreed. Missiles should apply damage instantly, just like in real life

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP

Test Alliance Please Ignore
#46 - 2012-03-26 04:55:01 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

The caracal is considered to be quite terrible tbh, only rarely used for killing frigates. The Raven has seen greatly reduced use in pve and no sane person flies it in pvp. The only worthwhile T1 missile boat is the drake, especially from a pvp perspective.

Yeah, Cara is pretty bad. But it has an advantage of being ignored. All of a sudden a close range cara with a rack full of ECM is a WTF moment. Pretty much crap once they figure out what is going on however.

Hail, former Primary. alliance-mate.

Caracal is a perfectly capable pvp ship. It can fit 2 LSE IIs, web, point, and MWD, with 2x BCS IIs, and 5x AML IIs. It's missiles can hit at over 50km, making it capable of kiting anything in its class or lower. I would confidently attack frigates, interdictors, T1 cruisers, and some recons with this thing

If one wants, one can fir HMLs and get >120km range on it and basically laugh at anything except tier 3s and BS. Don't mind the missile flight time. But the AML fit is my favorite

Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-03-26 05:19:03 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We want to make the less used Caldari hybrid ships (Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh) good at what they are supposed to be doing

Well to save you guys some work . when you come to the rokh, add in its missing mining bonus and then move it to its respected line . Then that will fix that ship real quick and you can move on to the more difficult ones.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#48 - 2012-03-26 05:24:10 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Vito Antonio wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hope that helps a bit Blink

So you're saying that we should train winmatar?

No, he's saying that you should cross-train to all races and weapon systems to become nerf-proof.

done up to battlecruisers and battleships.
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