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Active Tank in PvP
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Perihelion Olenard
#1 - 2012-03-24 20:51:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Is active tanking dead in PvP, now? I haven't done any PvP in this game since 2009, and now most fits I see in Battleclinic have no shield boosters or armor repairers. It's typically just a light to average buffer while fitting for more DPS. Has damage gotten so high in recent years that active tanking now sucks and has been forgotten? Hell, I remember the days of fighting active-tanked armor hurricanes. Nobody flies those anymore. It would seem that my earlier experience was in a different game than this one.

I decided to see how well a hyperion tanks these days. It struggles to tank a battlecruiser with a dual rep setup, at least in EFT.
Cyrina Manto
RBS Inc.
#2 - 2012-03-24 20:56:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyrina Manto
I still run an active tanked Myrmidon for PVP in WH space. Works fairly well in small gang situations (4-5 ships on either side), but it is definitely eclipsed in larger engagements.

I think that current strategies and doctrines for active tanking pretty much require bonused ships, preferably rep amount bonuses. Fleet boosting command ships are very nice (the tanking variety), but not required.

Also, overloading is a must in initial engagement from my experience.
Stetson Eagle
Paird Technology
#3 - 2012-03-24 21:11:34 UTC
Active tanking has a lot to do with baiting and small scale pvp. Here's some regular active tanks, I'm sure I'm forgetting many:

Frigates using bleeder tank or cap booster reinforced active tank:
-Rifter, Punisher, (lot of other frigates)
-Assault frigates

Cruisers using active tank:
-Sacrilege, Arbitrator, Maller
-T3 cruisers

Battlecruisers using active tank:
-Myrmidon, Prophecy, Cyclone
-Sleipnir

Battleships using active tank:
-Hyperion, Maelstrom
-Nightmare, Vindicator

The bigger it gets, the more it depends on cap boosters and right usage of baiting, overheat and tank boosters. Damage control is rather standard in active tanks.
Postitute
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-03-24 21:19:10 UTC
I've been playing since 2007 and buffer fits have been the standard in PvP (excluding certain ships and captials) since I've been here. There are scenarios where active is fine, or perhaps even better, but those usually involve small-sized engagements.

What's popular is not always right. Fit the ship for the situation and you will come out ahead usually.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#5 - 2012-03-24 23:54:22 UTC
Most people won't fight a bonused active ship 1 on 1 besides the cyclone because it is totally underestimated. Right now nano is in the house. Nano and active don't mix (except the tengu).

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Perihelion Olenard
#6 - 2012-03-25 00:09:59 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Most people won't fight a bonused active ship 1 on 1 besides the cyclone because it is totally underestimated. Right now nano is in the house. Nano and active don't mix (except the tengu).

Yea, it does seem that the new nano age is here. I thought it was over with the first general nano nerf several years ago. I never liked nano fits.
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#7 - 2012-03-25 05:17:15 UTC
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=15622361

He was halfway into structure when I died. The rest of gang couldn't break his tank. So I'd say it's not dead.
Pierre Dumonte
Mortis Noir.
#8 - 2012-03-25 13:28:54 UTC
Postitute wrote:
I've been playing since 2007 and buffer fits have been the standard in PvP (excluding certain ships and captials) since I've been here. There are scenarios where active is fine, or perhaps even better, but those usually involve small-sized engagements.

What's popular is not always right. Fit the ship for the situation and you will come out ahead usually.


There is much truth to this statement.

A LOT of the FCs i've talked to and fought with/against over the last while have all gone with buffer tank accompanied by logistics ships to provide the reps. The reason is that in most cases you will be engaging a fleet of 10 to 20 ships The alpha strike of that many ships will simply tear you to pieces unless you have the buffer to absorb that. You would need to be running dual reps before you get hit which limits your cap as well as your potential damage output.

Buffer + logistics = the ability to survive and to shoot the enemy.

when I fly solo or in small fleets I recommend that you have some ability to repair, unless you are in NPC space where you can dock and repair. But again, it depends on your flying style and the types of targets you are up against.

Eve-Online is a game that requires teamwork to succeed. Build your fleet with a balanced plan and an end in mind.

Mortis Noir. is recruiting https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=223392&find=unread" "any ship in space will eventually explode" ~ Minmatar Proverb
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#9 - 2012-03-26 11:21:04 UTC
Active tanks are pretty "meh"

Mostly because, by design, they turn every fight into a Binary proposition

1) You can tank more than the incoming DPS => you will always beat the passive tan
2) You can't tank the incoming DPS, you pop like a melon because you have no buffer and you lose to the passive tan

In most normal engagements/setups the breaking point is often 3 enemies, or less if cap warfare is involved.
Tenga Halaris
Galactic Traders Union
#10 - 2012-03-26 11:42:31 UTC
With an Offgridbooster, a Crystal Set and Bluepill this Setup will tank:

4690 DPS Omni for 4 mins
6808 DPS Omni with heat


[Maelstrom, Active Booster]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Warp Disruptor II
Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defence Operational Solidifier I
Large Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard I



Unless you have very good skills and a Boosteralt in System and can use Pills, it will be far less effective to use an active tank.


Btw.: Here's a nice video of someone using active tanking Maels and Cyclones

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/burntime/rusty-nails.mkv




nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#11 - 2012-03-26 12:02:16 UTC
Tenga Halaris wrote:
With an Offgridbooster, a Crystal Set and Bluepill this Setup will tank:

4690 DPS Omni for 4 mins
6808 DPS Omni with heat


[Maelstrom, Active Booster]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Warp Disruptor II
Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defence Operational Solidifier I
Large Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard I



Unless you have very good skills and a Boosteralt in System and can use Pills, it will be far less effective to use an active tank.


Btw.: Here's a nice video of someone using active tanking Maels and Cyclones

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/burntime/rusty-nails.mkv







who cares that this staged fight turned out how it did. it's a topic about "active vs passive" tanking and not some picked fights
Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-03-26 12:17:01 UTC
Though inherently obvious, most people don't consider the following - Kil2 made an interesting argument on one of his podcasts about how if you can get "x" number of reps in an engagement, where x reps provides more (or equal) HP than an equivalent plate/extender, you have already out-tanked the buffer fit.

If you are parking at a gate or station and slugging it out in each others optimal, you will probably not get much out of an active fit. But if you can control range and limit incoming DPS without the rep, having it likely allows you outperform a buffer fit.
Tenga Halaris
Galactic Traders Union
#13 - 2012-03-26 14:19:32 UTC



Quote:
who cares that this staged fight turned out how it did. it's a topic about "active vs passive" tanking and not some picked fights




It depends on the setup and occasion, also if boosters are involved and so on... In some cases active tanking can be very effective, in some cases it won't.

My setup was just an example what you could achieve dulaboxing ships.
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2012-03-27 01:01:07 UTC
As most have said to this point, active tanks are at a disadvantage in the current pvp world. This is double true when considering the T3 tornado and other very high alpha fleet docs. That being said with all the upcoming changes to tiers, roles, and especially neuts!, we may see a resurgence in large scale active fleets.

Sig fleet active armor hac's and af's? who knows. Have to wait and see I guess.
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#15 - 2012-03-27 03:42:42 UTC
Well, neut can own an active tank pretty hard given enough time, so generally speaking you want to use it in short-term situations. And in short-term situations a buffer tank is often a bit better overall, depending on the specifics.

It has its place, though, Gallente command ships are great with it, and there are a lot of tricks you can pull with an active-tanked Myrm to take people down fast.