EVE General Discussion

I would like to bring to your attention some long term tendencies in PvP, observed in the past few years.
I will discuss in details two interconnected aspects in warfare – Logistics ships and Alpha fleets.

I’ve started playing EvE in 2008. PvP career was an instant choice, my first fight was on the 3rd day after my first login, and I still remember it with all the details :)
I liked PvP in Eve, on account of its diversity, the contest of skills and proficiencies between pilots and fleet commanders. A rich choice of formats and tactics to choose from, constantly changing fleet compositions on both sides - I’ve flown in fleets of all sizes, from one man solo-roams, to 0.0 “global” clashes with 4 digits local counts.
Unfortunately, with time passing by, PvP as an art is degrading. And I am very much worried about it.
This degradation is dictated by the game mechanics. One of the major causes for this phenomenon in my opinion is the Logistics ships. Let us look into the way that the growing popularity of the Logistics ships has changed the way a fight is fought between 0.0 CTA fleets as well as mid and small gang roams.
We’ll begin with CTA fleets.
In my first few days in EvE, I’ve absorbed a known saying: “There’s no such thing as a good tank, there’s only bad focus.”
Back then, the only way to survive a well-focused strike was to warp out. The whole fight was planned on that principle. Standard fleet format back in 2008-2009 was sniper-battleships. The requirements to this format were simple – the ability to fire up to 150km distance, MWD and a tank strong enough to sustain one DD activation from a titan. During the fight, each pilot had to be aligned to an object and once focused – he had to warp out. This was a pivotal moment for each fight. If you wanted to take the warp out option from your opponent – you had to hold him in place. Interdictor had to place a bubble on the enemy fleet, and a target caller designated either the ships in the bubble or these that hadn’t have the chance to align after returning to the fight. Everybody tried to get out from the bubbles to regain that warp out capability. If a recon ship such as the Arazu or the Lachesis appeared on the grid – they were instantly primary since it was one more factor that took the ability to warp out away.
2 people commanded the fleet. One FC commanded the battleships, the other – the support which handled the tasks of countering the enemy tacklers and EWAR, tackling the enemy and affecting the enemy fleet with its own EWAR capabilities, with the enemy anti-tacklers as primary target.
The outcome of the battle was highly dependent on the efficiency of each part of the complex machine that the CTA fleet used to be. A group of good pilots, under the command of a good FC could combat a fleet bigger than their own, at times much bigger.
The only thing that ruined the whole picture was terrible lag, which demanded adjustments from the players that were not really a part of the game mechanics. Now days, with TD – the lags are almost gone. Alas - there’s not much left from the complexity of the CTA fleets of the years 2008-2009.
The problem with logistics ships has clearly presented itself after the release of Dominion. Before Dominion, logistics were used to repair ships on “safe-spots”- pilots warped out to get repairs. There are several reasons for that tactic – 0.0 regions could inhabit a limited amount of people whose main income were belt NPCs, so losing a t2 ship was not something everyone could bear too often. Also back then logistics were not flown by the amount of people that fly them today, and a logistics ship could not tank a titan DD activation. After Dominion there were anomalies, non-AOE DD for the titans and over time lots and lots of logistics pilots that gathered the skills and could afford the ships.
Suddenly the saying “There’s no such thing as a good tank, there’s only bad focus.” was no longer relevant. One COULD survive a focus strike without warping out. And as a consequence – we’re observing the degradation of fleet warfare in EvE.
1.There is a situation, where fleets are no longer fighting aligned to objects, and battleships make no attempts to warp out under focus. Their main hope – Logistics repairs.
2.Tackling during the fight is no longer relevant as well. Interdictor pilot sits cloaked in a safe-spot throughout the whole battle, waiting for the moment the enemy will warp out in mass. He’s no longer needed to kill a specific BS.
3.Anti-tacklers – are no longer needed. Our BSs are not warping away too. We see today a picture that would have caused a 2008 FC to blow some serious steam from his ears – our very own heavy interdictor is bubbling our very own fleet in order to interfere with enemies bombing efforts.
4.150km sniping fleets are a thing of the past. DPS from such fleet composition is not enough to break through enemy Logistics repairs.
5.An Alpha fleet appears, based on a dumb principle – one shot, one kill. We see things like the Arti-Abaddon with 270k EHP and 300 DPS. It will take about 15(!) minutes for one of these to kill another one of its kind. I will note that in 2008 some pilots flew out without tank at all (except a DC) against FC orders, with the main risk was to get killed by a titan DD but gaining DPS.
Let’s see, what a proficient BS pilot has to do in combat, both 2008 and 2012 fashions:
2008: The fight has started. Shoot the primary, while aligned. Watch bubbles – if there’s one on me, MWD out. Watch the distance to the enemy, adjust alignment accordingly. Watch overview for mass lock, warp as soon as damage is applied. Warp back in after repairs on a safe spot. Watch enemy interdictors, if in range - shoot him down – he’s more important than primary.
2012: The fight has started. Shoot the primary. Watch overview for mass lock, broadcast for repairs. No maneuvers are required beyond the obvious basics.

i have long time thought there is way too much logistics in this game. i would prefer it to be more like naval battles where ships go pass by and shoot broadsides and die when they ******* should but what do i know :P

Words of the pilot of alfa-fleet with logi

I love how people start their walls of text with a bio that's intended to demonstrate their credentials.

PvP sucks cause people that do it make it that way. It's in their natures. I - Me - My. They couldn't organize a Chinese firedrill on a football field. Their main feature in group activities is to sit around and wait for someone else to do something. Sure, get that fabulous ship, perfectly rig it and sit at your low sec gate waiting for a victim to happen by. Web a hauler, kill it and call it PvP.

When that fails, go to high sec and gank miners while showing smacktalk prowess in local. (Now THERE'S a talent!)

There's no PvP 'cause no intelligent people do it. The ones who do, or say they do, couldn't be helped if they were given a fleet of Tech 4 Ulti-ships with a ten billion ISK replacement fund. The life of the un-averse to risk population. QQ about PvP. I've been playing since '05 and that's ALL I've seen - weeping PvP-ers.

If it walks like a duck...quacks...etc. I mean. If you didn't have scrams, every last one of you would scram!
How many crutches do you really need to Pee Vee Pee??

You always say both of those...you haven't a clue where I play...and the server is going to be crushed by the weight of the PvP Is Dead Threads.

OP, it seems like your complaint stems from a belief that PvP mechanics have been degrading because the average PvPer is becoming stupider and stupider.

Why not get a group of smart PvPers and whack the dumb ones?

The answer is Falcon.

You're right, a Falcon with Amarr jammers would be worthless here.

Edit Dammit Harlot. e;fb

PASS ME MY CLIMBING EQUIPMENT - I WILL SCALE THE WORD WALL

just seeing how the "neut battle" is like a fight within the fight is very intriguing.