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Frigates: Shield tanking vs Armor Tanking, Shields seem superior
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Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#21 - 2011-09-24 08:01:29 UTC
Lost of replies here - anyone actually ever use a 400mm plated tristan ? Cause so far we got claws, rifters and griffins mentioned Blink
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q
#22 - 2011-09-24 12:06:15 UTC
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
Lost of replies here - anyone actually ever use a 400mm plated tristan ? Cause so far we got claws, rifters and griffins mentioned Blink

[Tristan, Zen Guerrilla's Tristan]
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
200mm Reinforced Titanium Plates I

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

125mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
125mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II,Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Rocket Launcher II,Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket

Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I



Hobgoblin II x1

Never tried a 400mm plate fit tho, it's already real fat and slow with just the 200mm one. You could probably just swap the rails with electron blasters and scram a 400mm plate in there but i'd say it's too slow to work then.

It really is fun to fly, even with ****** agility and speed. You just need to figure out how to start a fight without getting too close early at the start.

Also, if you can fly the rail tristan properly, you'll be awesome in a rail 'ranis. And after that there's the rail comet, which is a beast vs. other frigates.

pew pew
YesI'mWatching
Cool4Cats
#23 - 2011-09-24 14:04:10 UTC
shield tank if you can't efectively armour tank . Vigil , incursis , merlin all spring to mind.
Power grid available can influence the choice over and above the number of mid or lower slots.
KFenn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2011-09-24 14:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: KFenn
Gogo Seun Yabari wrote:
[Rifter, buffer]

Damage Control II
400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II

X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

150mm Light AutoCannon II
150mm Light AutoCannon II
150mm Light AutoCannon II
Rocket Launcher II

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I


No prop mod, and the trimarks make you sloooooooooow AND you do so little DPS the extra buffer doesn't even matter. This is a terrible fit.

[Rifter, Armor]
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Small Armor Repairer II

1MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
[empty rig slot]

That's a fairly cookie-cutter Rifter fit. Swap T2 for Meta where needed, and you can drop one of the rigs for armor rigs if you want, it's preference. I don't advise dropping both though, else you'll hit about as a hard as a wet noodle.

Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade
sukmanobov
Apollyllon
#25 - 2011-09-25 03:05:47 UTC  |  Edited by: sukmanobov
[Jaguar, NEUT - SCRAM - WEB]
Gyrostabilizer II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Power Diagnostic System II

Medium Shield Extender II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Warp Scrambler II
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I


175dps Faction ammo - 195 hail
11.9k ehp tank EFT figures so about 10K ingame 3.6kms
Also being sheild it has 43hps regen

Also cheap jag style rifter fit no web
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=8994231 why i had a poly carb rig on i have no idea :P just use another SSE rig
Azelor Delaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2011-09-25 03:29:49 UTC
Quote:
[Jaguar, Solo Combat]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner
Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster
Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
Corpii C-Type Small Nosferatu

Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I


This is an expensive fit for a Jaguar, and realistically you will want HG Crystals going, as well as maybe the Booster. The shield booster alone is about 75-mil, so this is not for the novice pilot.

The booster, along with the NOS, is cap stable at 54%. Facing a neut is painful, but you are, for the most part, able to outrange small neuts. 112 DPS with Barrage, which you want to use. Maintain distance at a minimum of 8,000 meters. Your max range before overheating on the NOS is 8.6km, and your falloff is also 8.6km. This is a scary fit for anyone to face, and a competent active tanked Jaguar pilot is pretty frightening to see on the battlefield.
Ravenclaw2kk
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2011-09-25 04:52:57 UTC
Duel MSE Jaguar is pretty epic, you really wouldn't want to armour tank a Jag.
KFenn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-09-27 00:50:22 UTC
Ravenclaw2kk wrote:
Duel MSE Jaguar is pretty epic, you really wouldn't want to armour tank a Jag.


Why not? It has enough lowslots to fit a reasonable armor tank, and it frees up the extra mid for a TD or the like:

[Jaguar, Armor]
Damage Control II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Armor Repairer II

1MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I

200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I

Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2011-09-27 01:44:06 UTC
KFenn wrote:
No prop mod, and the trimarks make you sloooooooooow AND you do so little DPS the extra buffer doesn't even matter. This is a terrible fit.


The fit you posted does basically the same DPS.
sukmanobov
Apollyllon
#30 - 2011-09-27 02:42:38 UTC
KFenn wrote:
Ravenclaw2kk wrote:
Duel MSE Jaguar is pretty epic, you really wouldn't want to armour tank a Jag.


Why not? It has enough lowslots to fit a reasonable armor tank, and it frees up the extra mid for a TD or the like:

[Jaguar, Armor]
Damage Control II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Armor Repairer II

1MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I

200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I


Lets do the math.

SAR II+AB II+Web II+Scram II+Tracking Dis I+Neut 1 + being nueted buy my fit = 20s of cap after that your basically a slightly less maneuverable slightly slower AF with less tracking less dps and smaller tank.

But yeah you can armor tank a jag all you want.
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#31 - 2011-09-27 04:39:16 UTC
Anyone ever shield tank a tristan ?
Vincenzo DiFrancesco
The Fancy Hats Corporation
#32 - 2011-09-27 05:55:27 UTC
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
Anyone ever shield tank a tristan ?


Never actually got around to building and flying it. But I was considering it for a little frigate "toruney" my old corp considered doing:


[Tristan, WTF Shield Tristan]
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Shield Extender II

Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


Hobgoblin II x1
KFenn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2011-09-27 19:42:30 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
KFenn wrote:
No prop mod, and the trimarks make you sloooooooooow AND you do so little DPS the extra buffer doesn't even matter. This is a terrible fit.


The fit you posted does basically the same DPS.


Wrong. Has a damage rig, also it's active tanked on top of a little buffer. EFT More.

Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade
sukmanobov
Apollyllon
#34 - 2011-09-28 02:52:14 UTC
KFenn wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
KFenn wrote:
No prop mod, and the trimarks make you sloooooooooow AND you do so little DPS the extra buffer doesn't even matter. This is a terrible fit.


The fit you posted does basically the same DPS.


Wrong. Has a damage rig, also it's active tanked on top of a little buffer. EFT More.


EFT warriors the best warriors and it shows http://r4pe.mindflood.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=161200

http://r4pe.mindflood.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=172160 supose i should use EFT more
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#35 - 2011-09-28 03:07:46 UTC
I've been flying combat frigates for a long time... starting with 400 plated tristans, to MSE merlins, to rifters, taranis, claws, and many more....

Your basic question... shield buffer vs active armor tanks points to a fundamental misunderstanding of frigate PvP. I don't mean this as an insult, so let me elaborate. To start very basic:

1rst: Armor vs Shield tanks... If you shield tank, you typically give up EWAR. If you armor tank, you reduce your speed and/or dps. Since EWAR can often negate Speed and DPS, this is a fairly even trade.

2nd: Active vs buffer tanking.... Active tanking often shines over buffer tanks in 1v1's, but it’s extremely situational. Active tanking is time limited from both sides. For quick fights, you get more return from a buffer. When the fight draws out, the repper brings in a bigger return... To really know which is better, you need to assess how much you can rep up before your ship explodes (or caps out).

The True Answer:
3rd: The tactics you utilize are what really determine the "best fit." Since an enemy's dps can be heavily modified by the tactics you use, it is your tactics that really matter. For example, a railgun tristan can easily destroy most interceptors (like the claw people have been posting). It just keeps the claw at about 7 km's and tears it apart. By increasing the range, you lower the incoming dps, and make your repper more effective, whereas a plate significantly slows down your ship limiting your ability to keep at range. Another good example of how tactics really determine a fight is my ranis vs a wolf. If I start at a distance (12 km), the wolf can apply a significant amount of damage before I can, and will typically kill me. However, if I can start the engagement at zero, then I can negate a large portion of his dps by orbiting faster than his guns can track. Under such circumstances, I typically win (albeit in deep structure). It is the knowledge of an enemy's fit and flying your ship to exploit their weaknesses that really make the difference.

As a new frigate pvp'er, in-your-face buffer tanks are typically easiest to learn with... but you'll lose a lot of ships while you’re learning what to engage, when to engage, and how to engage.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#36 - 2011-09-28 04:55:20 UTC
sukmanobov wrote:
KFenn wrote:
Ravenclaw2kk wrote:
Duel MSE Jaguar is pretty epic, you really wouldn't want to armour tank a Jag.


Why not? It has enough lowslots to fit a reasonable armor tank, and it frees up the extra mid for a TD or the like:


Lets do the math.

SAR II+AB II+Web II+Scram II+Tracking Dis I+Neut 1 + being nueted buy my fit = 20s of cap after that your basically a slightly less maneuverable slightly slower AF with less tracking less dps and smaller tank.

But yeah you can armor tank a jag all you want.


First off, the small diminishing power system drain is a NOS, not a Neut. Secondly, 20s is a very long time in a frigate fight. Finally, let’s skip the math and find a quiet nullsec system to duel in. I'll happily engage a dual MSE jag with this armor jag, as I'd shred it 99% of the time; that is, until your oh-so-typical hi-sec OOC reps arrive, at which point I'd easily power away and warp to safety. You can contemplate how EWAR negates your dps and speed while I slowly overcome your impressive passive shield recharge. We should all thank Sukmanobov for providing an excellent example that shows why tactics are so important. Willy-Nilly engaging at point blank, his enormous tank will win him most fights. However, a ship that gets under his guns' tracking, or keeps out of his guns' range can easily win. All ships have a weakness; you just need to learn how to exploit it.

KFenn has a quality armor jag fit for several reasons: The ab/scram/web allows it to control range in most engagements, the NOS allows it to hold neuting targets (vagas), and the TD can be used to negate substantial dps from most targets. It has some flaws too, but overall it’s a very good fit.
KFenn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2011-09-28 10:40:05 UTC
sukmanobov wrote:
EFT warriors the best warriors and it shows http://r4pe.mindflood.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=161200

http://r4pe.mindflood.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=172160 supose i should use EFT more


ROFL, you think I care about killboard stats? Also all your kill record shows is you usually fly around in gangs of 10 or more ganking lone targets. How is this meant to impress anyone?

Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#38 - 2011-09-28 14:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Karl and Gizznitt make some good points. Except karl's bit about rifters with a rep beating merlins. Big smile

The thing is the frigate class of ships is very well done by ccp. There is a huge variety of ways to fit frigates. That and the fact that they are cheap makes them a favorite for solo pvpers.

That is also why you need to have your log open and find out what your opponent is doing so you can react accordingly. (or learn how to "view ship" and see what guns he has fit)

Like Karl says the way you fit the ship should depend on whether you are going solo or with a gang.

One of the most important things for solo frig fighting is to look at the eft damage graph to see what dps is being done at different ranges and transversals!

That will tell you allot about how you want to pilot the ship. Don't just look at the static dps where you are sitting still shooting a station at point blank range. That is pretty much irrelevant.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
sukmanobov
Apollyllon
#39 - 2011-09-28 21:07:56 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Karl and Gizznitt make some good points. Except karl's bit about rifters with a rep beating merlins. Big smile

The thing is the frigate class of ships is very well done by ccp. There is a huge variety of ways to fit frigates. That and the fact that they are cheap makes them a favorite for solo pvpers.

That is also why you need to have your log open and find out what your opponent is doing so you can react accordingly. (or learn how to "view ship" and see what guns he has fit)

Like Karl says the way you fit the ship should depend on whether you are going solo or with a gang.

One of the most important things for solo frig fighting is to look at the eft damage graph to see what dps is being done at different ranges and transversals!

That will tell you allot about how you want to pilot the ship. Don't just look at the static dps where you are sitting still shooting a station at point blank range. That is pretty much irrelevant.


yup thats why i went 150mm over 200mm @ 500m the 150's will track much better in turn giving better hit avarage and more dps, ship already has a range bonus too so you can use hail in that close. Also Run AX-2 CX-2 (MX-2 yes i know its medium but 90% of the time i run canes, vaga's, Broad, Ruppie etc..) otherwise i'd have an SX-2.
Tracking is everything there no point in blasting 250dps frig if you can't hit a barge at 500m orbit
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#40 - 2011-09-29 00:13:33 UTC
sukmanobov wrote:
yup thats why i went 150mm over 200mm @ 500m the 150's will track much better in turn giving better hit avarage and more dps, ship already has a range bonus too so you can use hail in that close. Also Run AX-2 CX-2 (MX-2 yes i know its medium but 90% of the time i run canes, vaga's, Broad, Ruppie etc..) otherwise i'd have an SX-2.
Tracking is everything there no point in blasting 250dps frig if you can't hit a barge at 500m orbit


Sukmanobov is right on the money here. On ships like the jag, which lack a tracking bonus, the extra damage from 200's is often negated by their poorer tracking. I've solo'd sabres in my ranis by getting under the tracking of their 200mm autocannons.
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