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Miners, an endangered species.
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TravisWB
#121 - 2012-03-20 23:38:07 UTC
Yoma Karima wrote:
Shocked Where is the OP flying? the star systems around jita a full of miners.


All regions. Though the areas around trade hubs are usually avoided as they are primary gank zones, ninja salvager zones and areas of operation for the rediculous hisec wardec'rs. You know, pvp with neutral alt reppers.What?
Noddy Comet
Lysdexic Agnostics - Thier is no Dog
#122 - 2012-03-21 00:41:24 UTC
RealaiX wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
TravisWB wrote:
The base of the Eve economy is vanishing.


Mining isn't the base of the Eve economy.



so how you gonna get your spaceships if all miners stop mining Question



Duh, they'll sell their Plex on the market then use the ISK to buy more ships, silly. Roll

[i]"The biggest problem with quotes on the Internet, is that just because it's on the Internet too many believe them to be real" -[/i]Abraham Lincoln's "Berlin Wall" speech at the 1984 Winter Olympics.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2012-03-21 02:34:45 UTC
Nimbus Cloud Liebrum wrote:
ganking miners seems to be a case of biting the hand that feeds. you need the miners so can keep buying those ships and being foolish dumbas*ses that you are.


Awww...you think mining is the only source of minerals. How cute.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#124 - 2012-03-21 03:56:31 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Mortis vonShadow wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:


What if its piracy they want? Should they play a different game? Don't you want Eve to be a sandbox? Cipher Jones does.



Cipher Jones is a dumbass.


He certainly is but he's still a better poster than you.


Maybe, but he's still a dumbass. And you, we'll hell it would be too easy to take you apart. You show your ass so often that it would be like kicking the neighbors dog, if I had legs. Dumbass.

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#125 - 2012-03-21 13:15:58 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Dyniss wrote:
Mining is still very worthwhile as getting ships through mining and industry is way cheaper the just outright buying them


"way cheaper".....hmm, then how come when I go to produce a T3, it costs more to make it than to buy it on the market?


Not just T3, Kid.

Math off any ship or module in EVE. It's not even strategic sales where you sell the ship at cost and bleed them on the modules. Everything in the game is priced below its mineral value. Manufacturing in EVE is bankrupt. Sell the minerals, you make more ISK.


I've said this over a YEAR about T2 ship production, and I always get hooted down.

Glad someone else has seen the light.

My nagging doubts have been confirmed. Even worse than when I found out there was no Santa Claus....
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2012-03-21 13:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Vertigo Ren wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Dyniss wrote:
Mining is still very worthwhile as getting ships through mining and industry is way cheaper the just outright buying them


"way cheaper".....hmm, then how come when I go to produce a T3, it costs more to make it than to buy it on the market?


Not just T3, Kid.

Math off any ship or module in EVE. It's not even strategic sales where you sell the ship at cost and bleed them on the modules. Everything in the game is priced below its mineral value. Manufacturing in EVE is bankrupt. Sell the minerals, you make more ISK.


I've said this over a YEAR about T2 ship production, and I always get hooted down.

Glad someone else has seen the light.


I must be selling the wrong t2 ships and t2 modules then...


Well, that depends on a couple of overall factors. I can really only speak about T3 production since it's the only production that I've examined in depth. My information is now old since the market was so bad then I've not had any reason to believe it would improve significantly.

The first factor is uncertainty of reverse engineering. When 3/4's of the subsystems you can reverse engineer are unprofitable then you only have a 25% chance of rev-enging the one profitable sub. So, you have to increase its expense of rev-enging by 3/4.

The second factor is failure to rev-eng rate. Depending on skill you have a 30% - 50% (maybe higher, I can't remember) failure rate. This can also be renamed "waste". You're losing about 15 - 50mil per failure to rev-eng, sometimes more.

When you factor in factors 1 & 2, most all subs and hulls are in the red when compared to their component prices.

Factor number 3 is cost of resources. Do you consider the resources you gather free? If you do, then you will realize significant profit. If, on the other hand, you consider those resources to have a value...say market value, then you're better off selling the components on the market. Because if you factor in their costs at market value, most all subsystems and hulls are not profitable when measured against component value. Effectively, by considering resources free, you're lowering your own profitability in terms of isk per hour. Because the constituent components sell for more than their end product value, it's a big indicator that many T3 manufacturers are ill-informed.

When I observed this phenomenon after many hours of research, I had no reason to believe any of the other sectors of production behaved in a more reasonable fashion. And from what's being pointed out in this thread it's true, other sectors do indeed suffer this phenomenon.

As I've also seen elsewhere in the forums, many ships sell for close to their mineral value. This begs the question: Is time invested to produce those ships worth the effort? Or would one be more profitable to continue mining ore and cut out production and the time it requires to assemble all resources, components and production? IDK. But, if confirmed, it would be another indicator for why the OP's observations might be correct, that miners are becoming a rare breed, at least the live ones.

The phenomenon is mostly due to 1) bots, 2) over-competition, 3) uninformed manufacturers. Mining has always been a poor income stream. Perhaps, the live miners are wising up. I've known a few that have switched over to Incursions.

Don't ban me, bro!
Josefius
13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary
#127 - 2012-03-21 14:21:44 UTC
TravisWB wrote:
Link is repaired.

Isk faucet known as incursions and no miners added together equals runaway inflation.



I'm going to start a Mining Op this afternoon, just for you.

You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something, sometime in your life.

-Winston Churchill
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#128 - 2012-03-21 14:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Mr Kidd wrote:

Well, that depends on a couple of overall factors. I can really only speak about T3 production since it's the only production that I've examined in depth. My information is now old since the market was so bad then I've not had any reason to believe it would improve significantly.



Then WHY ON EARTH are you wasting our time and wearing out your fingers ????????????

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#129 - 2012-03-21 14:51:38 UTC
Mining is quite a bit more exciting today than it used to be simply because you will lose your Hulk if you aren't on your toes all the time.

I'd much prefer it was exciting because of cool gameplay mechanics though...you know: comet mining, belts that move or have to be scanned out, multiple ore types in single rocks where you have to use some form of scanning to get what you want, pirate mining groups that have to be dealt with before you can move into a belt, asteroids that will damage your ship if they hit it and the entire belt is in motion....that sort of stuff.
Sola Mercury
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2012-03-21 15:34:39 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:



Then WHY ON EARTH are you wasting our time and wearing out your fingers ????????????


Using more than 5 '?' in a row is considered as an evidence of mental congestion

Relax !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wolf Kruol
1st Tikiona Lancers
Citizen's Star Republic
#131 - 2012-03-21 15:55:53 UTC
It always amazes me how miners whine about everything. They get mostly what they want from CCP dev's to make it more difficult for gankers to do there work and for less profits.

You guys got your no insurance plan deal from CCP.. Yet you still whine?

Universe isn't a nice place. Its harsh with cold blooded killers in the dark. You want safety.. Surprisingly EVE grants you the ability to defend yourself. You can fight back or hire security.. Or put bounties on your targets..

Eve isn't about pressing the auto button and watching tv while your afking mining. Its about being there.. in the moment.. Living between life and death.

To top it off your immortal.. So what you whining about?

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#132 - 2012-03-21 16:01:57 UTC
Wolf Kruol wrote:

You guys got your no insurance plan deal from CCP.. Yet you still whine?




A useless gesture. Keeping 150,000 or so ISK for a T1 out of the hands of a ganker is HARDLY discouraging.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Wolf Kruol
1st Tikiona Lancers
Citizen's Star Republic
#133 - 2012-03-21 16:06:49 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Wolf Kruol wrote:

You guys got your no insurance plan deal from CCP.. Yet you still whine?




A useless gesture. Keeping 150,000 or so ISK for a T1 out of the hands of a ganker is HARDLY discouraging.


Your right but if your here reading these posts before that patch was added. It was a like a great start. Still Its not enough. Some players "Carebears" want it child proof so they can't think while doing there stuff. If you want to play simpler games stick to WOW or equivalent game types

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#134 - 2012-03-21 16:25:02 UTC
"Waaaaaah I'm a miner and I can't deal with change"

what if everyone stopped mining?

then prices would go up and people would start mining again because it would make financial sense!

All this "CCP must step in and make sure things stay the same" is totally against what Eve is - it is a dynamic system. Actions of players effect other players. The market changes, the smart players adapt, others run to the forums to cry.





Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#135 - 2012-03-21 16:52:48 UTC
Wolf Kruol wrote:
It always amazes me how miners whine about everything. They get mostly what they want from CCP dev's to make it more difficult for gankers to do there work and for less profits.

You guys got your no insurance plan deal from CCP.. Yet you still whine?

Universe isn't a nice place. Its harsh with cold blooded killers in the dark. You want safety.. Surprisingly EVE grants you the ability to defend yourself. You can fight back or hire security.. Or put bounties on your targets..

Eve isn't about pressing the auto button and watching tv while your afking mining. Its about being there.. in the moment.. Living between life and death.

To top it off your immortal.. So what you whining about?


Really? Miners whining? All I read about these days are scrubs like you that whine about miners mining. You're such a dumbass.

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.
Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#136 - 2012-03-21 16:53:30 UTC
Luh Windan wrote:
"Waaaaaah I'm a miner and I can't deal with change"

what if everyone stopped mining?

then prices would go up and people would start mining again because it would make financial sense!

All this "CCP must step in and make sure things stay the same" is totally against what Eve is - it is a dynamic system. Actions of players effect other players. The market changes, the smart players adapt, others run to the forums to cry.



Another dumbass right here.

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.
Wolf Kruol
1st Tikiona Lancers
Citizen's Star Republic
#137 - 2012-03-21 16:59:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolf Kruol
Mortis vonShadow wrote:
Wolf Kruol wrote:
It always amazes me how miners whine about everything. They get mostly what they want from CCP dev's to make it more difficult for gankers to do there work and for less profits.

You guys got your no insurance plan deal from CCP.. Yet you still whine?

Universe isn't a nice place. Its harsh with cold blooded killers in the dark. You want safety.. Surprisingly EVE grants you the ability to defend yourself. You can fight back or hire security.. Or put bounties on your targets..

Eve isn't about pressing the auto button and watching tv while your afking mining. Its about being there.. in the moment.. Living between life and death.

To top it off your immortal.. So what you whining about?


Really? Miners whining? All I read about these days are scrubs like you that whine about miners mining. You're such a dumbass.
Awe did someone tinkle in your cornflakes? I don't care if you mine or don't. I just love hearing you guys whine. Instead of dealing with the problem. But fear not. CCP will protect you... Twisted

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#138 - 2012-03-21 17:21:19 UTC
Luh Windan wrote:
"Waaaaaah I'm a miner and I can't deal with change"

what if everyone stopped mining?

then prices would go up and people would start mining again because it would make financial sense!

All this "CCP must step in and make sure things stay the same" is totally against what Eve is - it is a dynamic system. Actions of players effect other players. The market changes, the smart players adapt, others run to the forums to cry.

That's pretty much the case, it isn't as though shooting red crosses is so amazing. Also, it's like a month or something for a decent Covetor (hulk is close but :gank:) and a lot more for tengu, so it could start up pretty fast.

Will be interesting to see what drone changes will do to the mining thing.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Veronica Kerrigan
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2012-03-21 17:29:38 UTC
Just thought I would pop in to say that I have friends who mine actively in both high sec and null. They make me ships, so I protect them. That's how it's supposed to work. The easiest way to make it so more people mine is to decrease the amount of minerals you get from reprocessing, or even balance it out so that you always need some mined product to build something, by taking the trit out of refinement, seeing as it's supposed to be a weak metal.
Kessiaan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2012-03-21 17:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kessiaan
Wolf Kruol wrote:
It always amazes me how miners whine about everything. They get mostly what they want from CCP dev's to make it more difficult for gankers to do there work and for less profits.


CCP has a twisted sense of humor. Miners have gotten everything they asked for, yet each time the highsec bears who can't/won't defend themselves and cry the most end up worse off.

- Stealing from cans used to not give aggression. Now it does.
- Hopping in & out of an alliance to drop a wardec used to be an exploit. Now it's not.
- Suicide ganking no longer pays out insurance.

KB Link