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Dear CCP , regarding: web "exploit".
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#81 - 2012-03-20 18:14:01 UTC
...so as long as you warp scramble the target before it dies, after bumping it off station, you should have a pretty good counter argument.

Amirite?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#82 - 2012-03-20 18:24:56 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
But declaring something that's a well known part of the game an "exploit"? No, that's pretty ... bad.
No, it's not. It is utterly and completely irrelevant how well-known a bug is — it is still a bug, and exploiting such a bug is still an exploit. Webs keeping things from entering warp is a bug, plain and simple.

Quote:
The first outlaws webbing (and not scramming) freighters/JFs on a station that have clicked warp. The second outlaws webs.
No it doesn't. Both do the same thing: outlaws webbing as a method to keep ships from warping. You're still just as allowed as ever to slow people down. You're just as allowed as ever to mess up people's align times. You are completely free to use webs, as long as you're not piling them on to the point where it forces the target into this undefined state of unwarpability.

War Kitten wrote:
...so as long as you warp scramble the target before it dies, after bumping it off station, you should have a pretty good counter argument.
If the application of a warp scrambler manages to break the ship out of this “jammed warp engine” state, then yes.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#83 - 2012-03-20 18:27:42 UTC
I would argue anything that the game logic permits is fair play because any exploits or bugs should never have made it to release.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#84 - 2012-03-20 18:30:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
...


You don't properly understand what the problem was. IMO this is an artifact of you being a high sec carebear that doesn't PVP, but it could be because you are being intentionally obtuse. There is a world of difference between the first and second iterations of the announcement. The first outlaws webs as a rule while the second outlaws webbing freighters (and jump freighters) on a station without scramming them.

Basically: when I challenged CCP on this they fixed the announcement. Thus, QED and STFU.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#85 - 2012-03-20 18:40:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Liang Nuren wrote:
There is a world of difference between the first and second iterations of the announcement. The first outlaws webs as a rule while the second outlaws webbing freighters (and jump freighters) on a station without scramming them.

Basically: when I challenged CCP on this they fixed the announcement.
No, both outlawed the same thing, but in the original statement, CCP weren't telling people exactly it was they were outlawing (probably assuming — perhaps foolishly, which is a different discussion — that people who used it knew what they were referring to). Now that the cat is out of the bag, there's no point in being coy about the nature of the exploit any more, that is all.

You have to be a complete dumbass not to see that they're saying the exact same thing and that, no, they did at no point outlaw the use of webs. Stop acting stupid because I know you're not.
Rixiu
PonyTek
#86 - 2012-03-20 18:48:04 UTC
Seriously? They outlawed using tripple 90% webs to lock a freighter in "warp" after it undocked (and clicked warp) making it impossible for the freighter pilot to simply cancel warp and dock up. Are people really arguing that this is a good mechanic?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2012-03-20 18:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Tippia wrote:
Where's the confusion?

If people are managing to use a webber (a module that in no way inhibits warping) in a way that makes it inhibit warping, then that is indeed the module not working as intended — a bug — and making use of such a bug is pretty much the most basic and fundamental definition of an “exploit”.


It doesn't stop you from warping, thats where you're confused.


It just makes the process take 4 minutes, mainly due to the length of time it takes you to achieve warp speed.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#88 - 2012-03-20 18:53:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No, both outlawed the same thing, but in the original statement, CCP weren't telling people exactly it was they were outlawing (probably assuming — perhaps foolishly, which is a different discussion — that people who used it knew what they were referring to). Now that the cat is out of the bag, there's no point in being coy about the nature of the exploit any more, that is all.

You have to be a complete dumbass not to see that they're saying the exact same thing and that, no, they did at no point outlaw the use of webs. Stop acting stupid because I know you're not.


The first outlaws all use of webs without scrams/disruptors anywhere against anyone. The second outlaws webs without scrams on a station undock for a freighter/jump freighter that has a noob at the helm and just decided to click "warp" instead of taking the many options available to prevent his demise.

There is a world of difference between the two.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#89 - 2012-03-20 18:53:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Grath Telkin wrote:
It doesn't stop you from warping, thats where you're confused.

It must makes the process take 4 minutes, mainly due to the length of time it takes you to achieve warp speed.
…and jams you in the warping mode, which — regardless of all other details and what else might happen — is also a bug. Taking advantage of this bug is a text-book example of an exploit. I'm sorry, but there really is no wiggle-room on this one. Everything about it is about activating bugs, aka using exploits.

Liang Nuren wrote:
The first outlaws all use of webs without scrams/disruptors anywhere against anyone. The second outlaws webs without scrams on a station undock for a freighter/jump freighter that has a noob at the helm and just decided to click "warp" instead of taking the many options available to prevent his demise.
Ok, you need to take your rage goggles off and look at both of them again:

“It has come to our attention that some players are making use of a broken game mechanic involving web modules preventing people from warping, for the purpose of killing them.”

This does not in any way outlaw the use of webs without points. It outlaws the use of the broken game mechanic (not detailed in the post) that keeps people from warping. As with pretty much all exploits in the past, they chose not to elaborate on the exact nature of the exploit, because that just invites people to use it and they have no fix out for it yet so it's usually a bad idea to do so.

“We've become aware of an exploit that is being abused by players to catch jump freighters in low-sec in order to kill them. By webbing a ship that has initiated warp, the victim will be rendered unable to cancel the warp in order to dock.”

This is not in any way limited to webbing freighters on the station undock and does, if you calm down for a second, say the exact same thing as the above statement: it outlaws the use of the broken game mechanic (now explained) that keeps people from warping. The only difference between the two is that in the second case, and quite contrary to how they usually do this, they provide a description of exactly how the exploit works.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#90 - 2012-03-20 18:54:26 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Where's the confusion?

If people are managing to use a webber (a module that in no way inhibits warping) in a way that makes it inhibit warping, then that is indeed the module not working as intended — a bug — and making use of such a bug is pretty much the most basic and fundamental definition of an “exploit”.


It doesn't stop you from warping, thats where you're confused.


It just makes the process take 4 minutes, mainly due to the length of time it takes you to achieve warp speed.


* achieve warp speed on the proper vector. Small difference, but speed doesn't imply direction.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#91 - 2012-03-20 18:58:12 UTC
It's not exploiting a bug, it's exploiting ****** game mechanics that CCP introduced to stop you pulsing mwd then warping.
Cpt Pugwash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-03-20 18:58:47 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:


It doesn't stop you from warping, thats where you're confused.


It must makes the process take 4 minutes, mainly due to the length of time it takes you to achieve warp speed.


Haven't tested this myself, but from reading around it would apear that sufficient webbing may infact prevent the cancelling of warp (Ctrl Space) and with a few well placed bumps can prevent warping. Thus making a ship that was seemingly safely within docking range suddenly and unfairly vulnerable.

That being said the text in the original post is about as clear as mud and could be referencing practically anything involviing a web.
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#93 - 2012-03-20 19:00:14 UTC
confirming npc-s have been 'exploiting' this for years, immediately ban republic fleet

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-03-20 19:01:40 UTC
Ottersmacker wrote:
confirming npc-s have been 'exploiting' this for years, immediately ban republic fleet


thems federation navy got me with this too, heard reports caldari navy also been exploiting too.

so long navys, your days are numbered
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#95 - 2012-03-20 19:03:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
It doesn't stop you from warping, thats where you're confused.

It must makes the process take 4 minutes, mainly due to the length of time it takes you to achieve warp speed.
…and jams you in the warping mode, which — regardless of all other details and what else might happen — is also a bug. Taking advantage of this bug is a text-book example of an exploit. I'm sorry, but there really is no wiggle-room on this one. Everything about it is about activating bugs, aka using exploits.

Liang Nuren wrote:
The first outlaws all use of webs without scrams/disruptors anywhere against anyone. The second outlaws webs without scrams on a station undock for a freighter/jump freighter that has a noob at the helm and just decided to click "warp" instead of taking the many options available to prevent his demise.
Ok, you need to take your rage goggles off and look at both of them again:

“It has come to our attention that some players are making use of a broken game mechanic involving web modules preventing people from warping, for the purpose of killing them.”

This does not in any way outlaw the use of webs without points. It outlaws the use of the broken game mechanic (not detailed in the post) that keeps people from warping. As with pretty much all exploits in the past, they chose not to elaborate on the exact nature of the exploit, because that just invites people to use it and they have no fix out for it yet so it's usually a bad idea to do so.

“We've become aware of an exploit that is being abused by players to catch jump freighters in low-sec in order to kill them. By webbing a ship that has initiated warp, the victim will be rendered unable to cancel the warp in order to dock.”

This is not in any way limited to webbing freighters on the station undock and does, if you calm down for a second, say the exact same thing as the above statement: you are not allowed to make use of the broken game mechanic (now explained) that keeps people from warping. The only difference between the two is that in the second case, and quite contrary to how they usually do this, they provide a description of exactly how the exploit works.


There's no point in trying. No mater how logical the argument, they'll just plug their ears and continue to be butthurt that it will take them just that much more effort to be a **** in a video game. Roll

I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
Tonemaster B
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2012-03-20 19:12:55 UTC
Dude no one really cares that you tell CCP that you think no one understands their message.

This is how I understand the first message,

"Don't be a **** and use exploits or we will ban your ass"

This is how I understand the second message,

"Don't be a **** and use exploits or we will ban your ass"
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#97 - 2012-03-20 19:16:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Valentyn3 wrote:

There's no point in trying. No mater how logical the argument, they'll just plug their ears and continue to be butthurt that it will take them just that much more effort to be a **** in a video game. Roll


I actually don't do the freighters/jump freifhters on the station undock thing. I don't even care about it. I know that to the PVP uninitiated all you can see is the news of the JF kill and the implications of JFs dying while locked out of their ship for minutes at a time.

However, the initial verbiage of the news item outlawed all uses of webs without points (though even this was very vague and ambiguous). When I pointed out that the verbiage of the news item basically outlawed webs outright, CCP changed it to "more accurately reflect internal communication". And I'm fine with the new definition of the exploit - it always annoyed me when I got hammered by it.

Thus: CCP agrees with me - the initial ruling was far too broad. How's that for a "logical argument"?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-03-20 19:24:08 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
It seems some people are misunderstanding whats going on here, and why it's suddenly an exploit thats been in the game for years...

The problem here is that when done correctly on a ship like a jump freighter... apparently the ship becomes unable to cancel warp with ctrl + space?

I think I might have experienced this myself a few times before, once where it was faction police, and another time when it was another player on a station (I simply relogged quick and docked, that seemed to fix it for me)




This man gets it.



Webbing then bumping will remain a viable tactic after CCP fixes this small bug.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2012-03-20 19:34:15 UTC
Dez Affinity wrote:
It's not exploiting a bug, it's exploiting ****** game mechanics that CCP introduced to stop you pulsing mwd then warping.


At least you admit it's an exploit.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-03-20 19:35:25 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
It's not exploiting a bug, it's exploiting ****** game mechanics that CCP introduced to stop you pulsing mwd then warping.


At least you admit it's an exploit.



Why would I not? I'm too lazy to camp JF systems 24/7.