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Banks. We need them.
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Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#201 - 2012-03-20 02:02:52 UTC
There was never an ounce of evidence for any of it. It could have been 0 isk for all the proof that was supplied.

By all means though, if you want to go around spamming adverts for your "bank" in local for 6 months like these guys did, please go right ahead. I guarantee you'll be quite alone in this process, which means you'll never do it. You know your business model relies on naive young "converts" to your horsecrap, people who you can exploit and then leave holding the bag when you're ill-conceived ideas go to ****.
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#202 - 2012-03-20 02:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Andarius
Hexxx wrote:
Pre-EBANK Collapse

EVE Intergalatic Bank (EIB) - Collapsed cost 790 Billion
Fury Bank (FBANK) - Collapsed cost (had trouble tracking this one down) estimated at 250 Billion
Destiny Bank (DBANK) - Collapsed cost 646 Billion

EBANK Collapse - Deposits when frozen around 1.7 Trillion, unclear how much liquidated and returned to date....estimating 700 billion to 1 trillion realized losses.

Post-BANK Collapse

Phaser - Planned Fraud - Collapse cost of 1 Trillion, total loss.....6 months ago.


I wish this post occurred much earlier in the thread to explicitly lay out the past consequences of banks. I was in the process of finding those specific numbers and writing out a post earlier in the thread, but I believe I got distracted. Thank you for posting that!


Adunh Slavy wrote:
This is a side comment, I don't want to derail the thread, but Modern Central Banks, with Fiat Debt money can do nothing but inflate the money supply. Can go to out of pod if we want to go into that more.


This was posted much earlier and I meant to respond to it. In a technical sense, you are correct. The shear act of money creation is necessarily inflation. That is, if there is more money added to the supply, then the cost of goods will go up ever so slightly in response. However, I am curious if you were implying something else when you wrote this, such as: if a fiat debt system is in place, then inflation must always progressively get higher over time. In that case, I would entirely disagree. For example, if labor and production of goods exceeds the amount to which the US Treasury is issuing Treasury Notes (which will be bought through private bank intermediaries before the Federal Reserve purchases them by creating money), then the price of goods would actually go down (that is, deflation would occur).

Andarius Trading Corp. | MD Borrowers and Trustees
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#203 - 2012-03-20 02:19:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Andarius
Darth Tickles wrote:
Trust.

Trust is dead. Deal with it. Investors have learned their lessons from the disasters of the past. New unsecured borrowers have slowed to a trickle, and the idea of somebody new gaining the requisite trust to undertake something remotely resembling a bank is farcical. It just plain isn't going to happen.


Hello Darth-Tickles'-Cynicism-Towards-Banking, would you please meet my friend Darth-Tickles'-Cynicism-Towards-People's-Intelligence:

Darth Tickles wrote:
You know your business model relies on naive young "converts" to your horsecrap, people who you can exploit and then leave holding the bag when you're ill-conceived ideas go to ****.


**Jake Andarius sits back and enjoys watching the cognitive dissonance.

Andarius Trading Corp. | MD Borrowers and Trustees
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#204 - 2012-03-20 02:24:31 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
There was never an ounce of evidence for any of it. It could have been 0 isk for all the proof that was supplied.


Roll

Darth Tickles wrote:

By all means though, if you want to go around spamming adverts for your "bank" in local for 6 months like these guys did, please go right ahead. I guarantee you'll be quite alone in this process, which means you'll never do it. You know your business model relies on naive young "converts" to your horsecrap, people who you can exploit and then leave holding the bag when you're ill-conceived ideas go to ****.


I believe this is you realizing that absolute statements like "Trust is Dead" may not have been entirely accurate. Big smile
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2012-03-20 02:30:35 UTC
Jake Andarius wrote:

I wish this post occurred much earlier in the thread to explicitly lay out the past consequences of banks. I was in the process of finding those specific numbers and writing out a post earlier in the thread, but I believe I got distracted. Thank you for posting that!




No problem. I'm not going to act like Banking is some risk free thing - there are substantial risks for those running it (I've lost count of the times that I've been told that I am defined entirely by EBANK's failure) and there are substantial risks for participating in them (as history shows).
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#206 - 2012-03-20 02:34:22 UTC
Jake Andarius wrote:
blah


Nonresponsive.

One requires the amount you can count on a hand, the other requires 100s if not 1000s.

A childish oversimplification.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#207 - 2012-03-20 02:35:49 UTC
Hexxx wrote:


Roll

[quote=Hexxx]

I believe this is you realizing that absolute statements like "Trust is Dead" may not have been entirely accurate. Big smile


Really, an emote and a throw away comment that isn't even justified by what you quoted?

That's your response?
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#208 - 2012-03-20 02:44:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Andarius
Darth Tickles wrote:
Jake Andarius wrote:
blah


Nonresponsive.

One requires the amount you can count on a hand, the other requires 100s if not 1000s.

A childish oversimplification.


Hexxx and I are trying to point out that you are making two simultaneous claims that contradict.

  1. Potential investors have learned from past mistakes and will NOT invest in another bank.
  2. Potential investors have NOT learned from past mistakes and will invest in another bank.


Presumably the first claim comes from your own personal negative sentiment towards banking, and the seconds comes from your thoughts that there are people stupid enough to try virtually anything. Now that you are being shown your personal sentiments are leading you to two contradictory claims, it should cause feelings of being mentally unsure because you recognize that both claims cannot in fact be true at the same time.

If you ultimately side with the idea that people are stupid enough to try anything and that a large number of people would still invest in a bank, it would be interesting. Because if a bank did come along that functions correctly and "exploited" investors ignorance of the past, then they would actually become a stable bank in the EVE universe.

Andarius Trading Corp. | MD Borrowers and Trustees
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#209 - 2012-03-20 02:53:51 UTC
Jake Andarius wrote:
blah


No, you misunderstood from the start

All hexx needs is a couple of suckers to drag along for the ride while he makes an ass of himself. Completely possible.

All a new "bank" needs is hundreds of depositors. Completely impossible.

I hope that clears things up for you. Furthermore, I hope you enjoy the ride.
Cord Binchiette
Kzinti Confederation
#210 - 2012-03-20 02:59:36 UTC
If there was a NPC bank couldn't you use your account as collateral? Couldn't CCP just set it so you could borrow based on the skill points on that account?

And the penalty for not having the money to pay the loan back on the due date would be locking the account so it couldn't use the market/contracts or trade or see local. I guess my idea is that anyone trying to scam the bank would lose functionality of all their characters that they could have sold for much more than what the loan was worth. Anyone buying an account just to scam the bank would lose money on the deal. And making an alt to take out the loan would still affect the other characters on the account if the loan defaults.
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2012-03-20 03:02:33 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
Hexxx wrote:


Roll

[quote=Hexxx]

I believe this is you realizing that absolute statements like "Trust is Dead" may not have been entirely accurate. Big smile


Really, an emote and a throw away comment that isn't even justified by what you quoted?

That's your response?



Darth, I have full faith that if you don't want to acknowledge something...you will find a way not to. There's nothing I can say to you that will make any difference, and so...I gave you an emote.

The comment is not a throw away; we have now gone from "Trust is Dead" to "Getting hundreds of depositors is impossible.". You may not agree with me, but at least I'm consistent.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#212 - 2012-03-20 03:03:08 UTC
blah blah blah never going to happen

if you can work with the tools given and achieve something great, ccp will splash your name all over maganzines

if you cant, they dont care.

they have much bigger fish to fry than this infinitesimal corner of the game
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#213 - 2012-03-20 03:03:58 UTC
Hexxx wrote:
The comment is not a throw away; we have now gone from "Trust is Dead" to "Getting hundreds of depositors is impossible.". You may not agree with me, but at least I'm consistent.


That is exactly the same comment.
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2012-03-20 03:09:17 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
Hexxx wrote:
The comment is not a throw away; we have now gone from "Trust is Dead" to "Getting hundreds of depositors is impossible.". You may not agree with me, but at least I'm consistent.


That is exactly the same comment.


I'm glad you qualified your original statement, just keep in mind that if you change it later to "thousands" I'm going to call you on it.
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#215 - 2012-03-20 03:12:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Andarius
Cord Binchiette wrote:
If there was a NPC bank couldn't you use your account as collateral? Couldn't CCP just set it so you could borrow based on the skill points on that account?

And the penalty for not having the money to pay the loan back on the due date would be locking the account so it couldn't use the market/contracts or trade or see local. I guess my idea is that anyone trying to scam the bank would lose functionality of all their characters that they could have sold for much more than what the loan was worth. Anyone buying an account just to scam the bank would lose money on the deal. And making an alt to take out the loan would still affect the other characters on the account if the loan defaults.


There is a good idea in here, in my opinion. It is useful to rule out very young characters as someone who you would trust with large (or even any) amount of ISK. That is common practice on the MD bond market. It is also an extremely sad fact for newer players. However, the types of loans that banks want to make are in the large range anyways. For newer players, it is usually harder for them to appropriately allocate billions of ISK (there are certainly exceptions to this, myself included in early 2010). The problem is that after about a character becomes 6 months or a year old, that indicator for how much they might be able to borrow and put to use is much more ambiguous.

Also, I really do not think NPC banks add anything of great value to EVE. CCP might as well arbitrarily make EVE wallets grow by 1% a month. An NPC loan market would be very difficult to code. Add to that CCP likes (and most players like) player economies over NPC economies.

Edit: Being able to use billions of ISK after 2 months and having no access to more investments was really depressing as a new player back in the day. That actually really killed my enthusiasm for the game for a while. Sad

Andarius Trading Corp. | MD Borrowers and Trustees
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#216 - 2012-03-20 03:16:04 UTC
Hexxx wrote:
I'm glad you qualified your original statement, just keep in mind that if you change it later to "thousands" I'm going to call you on it.


I haven't changed a thing.

Cherry-picking lines out of complete arguments just shows how farcically desperate you've become. You were left behind on page 7 of this thread, and you haven't had a valid rebuttal since. This last page has just been the farcical twitchings of a defeated man. You literally aren't even in this discussion anymore, that's how far you've been left behind.
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#217 - 2012-03-20 03:30:24 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
Hexxx wrote:
I'm glad you qualified your original statement, just keep in mind that if you change it later to "thousands" I'm going to call you on it.


I haven't changed a thing.

Cherry-picking lines out of complete arguments just shows how farcically desperate you've become. You were left behind on page 7 of this thread, and you haven't had a valid rebuttal since. This last page has just been the farcical twitchings of a defeated man. You literally aren't even in this discussion anymore, that's how far you've been left behind.


Big smile
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#218 - 2012-03-20 03:34:31 UTC
Hexxx wrote:
Finally we get your thoughts laid out in detail. I may disagree with some, but it's largely philosophical and that's fine.

I will pick on one thing though - the idea that "Trust is Dead".

There have been three large Banks prior to EBANK and one AFTER it that collapsed. All of them have been major collapse. If your position is that Trust is dead, you would not be the first to predict it, and only one of many to be wrong about it. It's notable that Phaser gained most of it's customers from outside MD and EBANK also had a very large number of customers outside of MD.

Pre-EBANK Collapse

EVE Intergalatic Bank (EIB) - Collapsed cost 790 Billion
Fury Bank (FBANK) - Collapsed cost (had trouble tracking this one down) estimated at 250 Billion
Destiny Bank (DBANK) - Collapsed cost 646 Billion

EBANK Collapse - Deposits when frozen around 1.7 Trillion, unclear how much liquidated and returned to date....estimating 700 billion to 1 trillion realized losses.

Post-BANK Collapse

Phaser - Planned Fraud - Collapse cost of 1 Trillion, total loss.....6 months ago.

This is less "trust isn't dead" than "there are always new suckers."
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#219 - 2012-03-20 03:47:38 UTC
KrakizBad wrote:
This is less "trust isn't dead" than "there are always new suckers."


I am confused about how that distinction is being made. If there are hundreds of "suckers" willing to invest billions of ISK in an EVE bank because they believe it will succeed, then trust is not dead. In the context of EVE banking, I think trust is dead when no banking venture can pull in even a few hundred billion anymore because there is enough cultural awareness about banks to just shut down investments. If Phaser is any indication, that simple does not seem to have happened yet. I think if anything is currently dead (or perhaps simply dormant), it is enthusiasm for MD players to try to attempt a bank again. That is not necessarily a bad thing considering there seems to be no really solid ideas for banking right now, but it is very different than saying investor trust is dead.

Andarius Trading Corp. | MD Borrowers and Trustees
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#220 - 2012-03-20 03:52:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Tickles
Jake Andarius wrote:
If Phaser is any indication,


Please supply even a modicum of evidence about how much phaser took in.