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2 man Wormhole PI with a POS?
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Syven Entarion
Hemophiliac Knife Fight
#1 - 2011-09-23 17:44:17 UTC
I've been thinking about starting up some wormhole PI with a friend and am looking for some feedback on my plan.

We'd set up a small POS in a WH off the beaten path with just a few planets (enough for 4 toons.) Save up stuff at the POS and run it to a trade hub whenever we got the chance via a freighter, or use industrials to drop the stuff in to hisec and move it via freighter or contacts from there. For defense the POS would use mass jammers (like 25 of them) as no one would be online to defend the vast majority of the time. I'm considering not even having a ship maintenance array and just parking industrials inside the shields to make it look as if there is very little of value there (cause there really wouldn't be.)

Why this plan?
1. I want to make my own schedule. I don't want to join a WH corp and either have to be active for hours everyday or feel like I have to be active.
2. Good cash with minimal time investment once it's up and running (provided I don't get destroyed right away.)
3. Mining and missions bore me to death. I want to try something new that's not hisec PI, or pure hauling.

I have no illusions, I fully expect to get stomped eventually doing something like this. I'd be happy if I broke even on this venture as it would provide some entertainment at least.

Questions:
- Am I delusional? Is this just flushing my money down the drain?
- Is a small CT enough? Or do I need to go medium with a ton more defense to survive a reasonable amount of time?
- Keep a freighter at the POS or use industrials to get the loot out? I prefer less effort, but a freighter is by far the most expensive part of the operation and I'm not sure if it's worth the risk.
- Am I missing anything?
Bloody Wench
#2 - 2011-09-23 18:36:15 UTC
Are you trollin' bro?

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack
Syven Entarion
Hemophiliac Knife Fight
#3 - 2011-09-23 19:05:28 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:
Are you trollin' bro?

Totally serious. If I'm crazy, confused, or highly ignorant of something, just say so.
Vagizzle Schrimshank
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-09-23 20:08:41 UTC
There's no such thing as off the beaten track in WH, also a small POS is highly likely to be attacked just for fun/loot.

You won't get a freighter into the class of WH a two man corp could reasonably be expected to hold for any length of time, due to the mass restrictions.

I ran a two man operation for a while in a C2 and the PI was fairly profitable (only I did the PI, the other guy didn't bother). We lost one tower due to me stupidly putting up a small tower the first time round. Once I erected a large tower with a lot of defence and redundancy we had no more attacks. Depending on what you do PI wise you may find you need a hangar array as you can end up with a lot of stuff whilst waiting for suitable exit holes. For extra cash you could do some reactions but be wary of suicide ganks in Hi due the high value of the cargo you'll be hauling (might be best to use an orca).
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#5 - 2011-09-23 20:37:05 UTC
Yes, it's doable. Maybe not the best investment of your time, but it's doable.

A few things I'd suggest. First, get in a C1 wormhole (preferably with a lowsec entrance) and use industrials to take stuff out. The C1 limits the incoming ships to BC and smaller and a lowsec entrance will further reduce your traffic. You should be able to drop a small or med tower in a C1 with plenty of defenses and not worry too much about it. ECMs are good, if you throw in a couple small guns you should be relatively safe unless you really **** someone off. And if you have no ship array in there either, just a storage hanger or a bunch of cans, you shouldn't be too big a target.

I would also keep a full load of Stront in there too. Some people might reinforce you for fun, but few people will bother sticking around to finish the job if it means waiting in a WH for a day and then probing their own way home.

On a side note, if you are interested in a C1 with a lowsec static, message me, I might be able to help you out.
Anishoara
Federal Institute Service
#6 - 2011-09-24 00:10:33 UTC
As above, yes is doable without any problem, but you must think to this :

What i want to do with my PI ?

A - extract P0, exit from WH and sell
B - extract P0, produce P1, exit from WH and sell
C - extract, produce multiple P1, then produce P2, exit and sell

If A, beleive me you'll get crazy because of the volume it will represent
If B, i highly suggest you to be inside a Class 3 WH, just to be able to pilot an Orca who will successfully pass the gate multiple time. If you find a Class 3 WH with a D845 gate, you'll be very confortable for your logistic, but this type of system is very difficult to find inhabited :)
If C, you are able to do you logistic with an Industrial Ship, so a C1 or C2 is enough.

About the POS, avoid small pos, really ... Minimum a Medium POS, and best, a Large.

Don't be afraid about the cost of the fuel, just do the anomalies inside your system will largely pay the fuel and the modules. In a C3, between Sleepers Loot and Salvage, you can count on approx 35M/75M per anomaly. 2 guys in a well fitted tengu = less than 10mn per anomaly.

Personnaly, i hate to move my freighter ... I only use it to bring the fuel. I give all my logistic WH -> Jita to the "Red Frog Freight". It will cost you almost nothing, and better to do sites in your WH than to waste your time to jump with your Freighter :)
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
#7 - 2011-09-25 18:52:44 UTC
What you are planning to do is the exact thing I'm doing right now.
- small POS
- Full of ECM
- a lot of offline guns
- 1 corporate hangar
- running 1 month with no problems

I believe that in a Class 1 WH most ppl won't bother with a DickStar setup.

If I would be the attacker and I would assume you have tons of PI stored there worth billions.... My 2nd question would be how the hell do I get that much m3 out of the Class 1.

My 1st question would be : WTF ?

Blog | Tutorials | Youtube "I don’t know everything, I just know what I know."
Malarkey
Twisted Creations
#8 - 2011-09-25 20:54:14 UTC
I recently spent some time scanning for wormholes from high and low sec.

There were very, very few un-occupied class 3s or lower.

Be prepared to spend some time looking for the right 'hole.
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#9 - 2011-09-25 23:28:38 UTC
I want to address one of your misconceptions about wh corps, MANY are laissez faire, meaning you can make your own schedule, you just pay "rent". I would STRONGLY suggest you join a wh corp before trying it alone, there are MANY pitfalls here, although it can be quite profitable, it can be quite costly.

Best,
AG
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Syven Entarion
Hemophiliac Knife Fight
#10 - 2011-09-27 12:59:31 UTC
Thanks for all the feedback. Given this, I'm thinking I'll go with a medium CT in a class 1.

My next question then is, would it be better to go all ECM with a Caldari tower for the 75% targeting time bonus? Or go with an Amarr tower and add some guns in to the mix? I know ECM's take a long time to target, so that bonus is pretty useful. But is it worth giving up all that power grid that could be put towards other defenses.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-09-28 00:28:49 UTC
Honestly if all you want to do is PI I wouldn't bother.

First I would roll up an alt. WH PI is very profitable but also annoying. The need to visit the planets combined with the moving of the exit makes PI annoying unless you just stay inside the WH all the time. You can take an alt to sufficient PI in just over a week. (I have 3)

Then I would consider simply joining a WH corp with said alt. My old corp did charge a fee for WH PI to help pay for the POS. But it was nothing compared to the isk I was generating.

Conversly a medium POS is gonna run you on average 200mil/month to keep fueled.

To be fair, I did leave my old corp, and set myself up in a nice C1. But i did it for more than just the PI. Plus I have 3 PI toons making stuff now, with my main able to move in and out freely depending on what I feel like doing.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-09-28 13:20:46 UTC
Get in touch with me in game Syven, I have a proposal for you. (Not sure if Syven is just a forum alt - hence the message)
Sola Mercury
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2011-09-28 17:49:10 UTC
You dont need to arm your pos, and a small one will do if you:
- Choose a W-Space with low attractivity. eg Class 1 w/o high sec static
- Have Stront in your tower + spare Stront to refill in cases of attacks
-Clean your W-Space.Meaning get rid of the anomalities and radar/mag sites. (Scan the sigs, initial warp, cancel warp, they will be gone in a few days)

your pos will get attacked from time to time, but as the attacker will not want to stay and make it his new home, he will be gone when the pos comes out of reinforcement. Also chances are, he will not shoot the pos into reinforcement anyway.
fuel2310
Balls In Front
#14 - 2011-09-28 21:51:26 UTC
its no problem doing what you are thinking about

if you want i can help you whit evry thing you need convo me in game and lets talk

i think i got what you need and want :)

best regards fuel2310