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Corp hopping during war time

Author
Johannes Oliver Shiyurida
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-02-16 16:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Johannes Oliver Shiyurida
This is the scanerio, two corps are at war plus associates of one of the corps. Corp A is a group of high sec carebears with shinny faction ships. Corp B is a shell corp with only one person. Associates of Corp B will follow Corp A without being considered a war target. While members of Corp A are at a gate warping to another system, the associates bump these players off gate preventing them to jump or warp away. At that time, the associates will then be accepted into Corp B. But here lies the problem with the EVE program, Corp A will not recognize the associates as war targets, but the associates, now part of Corp B, will recognize Corp A as a war target. Any retaliation from Corp A will draw a CONCORD response, while the associates are free to kill Corp A without fear.

This practice is an EXPLOIT of the game.
Quote:
Corp hopping: This is never an exploit with one exception; you are not allowed to join a corporation that is at war while you are in space and in the same system as a war target of that corporation.

Senior GM Homonoia


CCP has done nothing in either a client update or penalize the pilots involved with the exploit.

I believe that people joining a corp at the time of war must go through a stasis period of 15min. Although, there is a work around this problem for the aggressor, you just have a neutral bump the ship until your stasis period concludes, but maybe this time is enough for the EVE Online servers to identify both sides as war targets.

Is it possible to enact an ingame CONCORD fine for all the pilots employing this exploit?
RatKnight1
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2012-02-16 17:30:04 UTC
My corp has run into this problem recently. As a matter of a fact, we had a guy LEAVE the at war corporation, WITHOUT a session change, right after we locked onto him. Our guy almost lost his ship, thankfully he got the Concord warning.

This needs to be fixed, there used to be a 24 hour wait period before you could join or leave a corp. Perhaps, when accepted into a corp, you should be in "waiting" and still a WT for a set period of time, or vice versa, have to wait a set period of time before joining an at war corporation.

This is a serious problem, what is the point of a war dec if all they have to do is drop the corp to get away? It is annoying, and worst of all people lose ships because of this, when they really did nothing wrong, with mixed results at best when it is petitioned.

Please fix this.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#3 - 2012-02-16 19:28:12 UTC

War mechanics are broken and need serious fixing!!!

1.) Dec shields should be eliminated.
2.) In non-mutual wardecs, the aggressing corp should have all corp applications automatically rejected until the war is over. (i.e., you can't join a corp that has declared war on aother, unless the wardec is mutual like with RvB).
RatKnight1
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2012-02-16 19:34:59 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

War mechanics are broken and need serious fixing!!!

1.) Dec shields should be eliminated.
2.) In non-mutual wardecs, the aggressing corp should have all corp applications automatically rejected until the war is over. (i.e., you can't join a corp that has declared war on aother, unless the wardec is mutual like with RvB).


Yes, so when is CCP gonna get on this? This is perhaps one of the biggest issues in HS PVP.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-02-16 19:57:47 UTC
Here's the problem that I had.

My corp and i decided to war dec a macro mining corp that was mining out all the good ores in our mining system.
The controller of these characters(same guy) decided to withdraw the 3 hulk characters from the corp. So we proceeded to suicide gank the hulks, and pulled off 2 kills, though the 3rd was poorly executed, due to some ninja logging.
Anywho, The corp CEO(Orca pilot) logged on, and had applied to the new corp, but he had forgotten to accept the application. A couple of us were online and attempted to track down the target while he was travelling to his new system(we succesfully pushed them out of our system.) We finally cought up to him, locked him, and right before we started firing, he accepted the application with another character, which dropped the orca as a war target, and we got a "if you do this, Concord pops you" message.

So, you're not allowed to apply to a Corp while in space, but you can be accepted into a corp while in space. I think you should at least have to be docked in both cases.

Overall though, even with all the annoyances that are involved with wardecs and allowed mechanics, nothing should be changed until CCP finds a way to balance the war dec system so that it's not so one sided.

P.S.
The Corp and characters of which we're certain were macro mining as a fleet were -

Corp - Bank of Panda

Orca Character -
acetylcholin

Hulk Characters -
athena ayasaki
hinagiku ayasaki
Testsujin

Reasons we know they're macros.
1) The orca is never there picking up ore, it's always out floating around serving up bonuses
2) 300km warp in from belts, distinct macro function
3) Mines asteroids that other players are mining, and will warp in on top of you to do so...(who does that intentionally?)
4) Convos are blocked by all the characters
5) I've bumped each of them off roids before and never once got a response or seen a human reaction(like leaving the belt)
6) If you war dec the corp they're in, they will imidiately jump corp and start a new one.
7) When we ganked them, they imidiately ninja logged.
8) All 4 characters are on 23/7 and minus the orca, always mining

Feel free to gank these characters wherever you see them, because myself and several others have reported them as macros and CCP has yet to do anything about it, so we'll just have to keep it up until the player is all out of isk to buy new hulks. Hopefully someone can pull off a nice orca gank.
RatKnight1
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2012-02-16 20:01:20 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Here's the problem that I had.

My corp and i decided to war dec a macro mining corp that was mining out all the good ores in our mining system.
The controller of these characters(same guy) decided to withdraw the 3 hulk characters from the corp. So we proceeded to suicide gank the hulks, and pulled off 2 kills, though the 3rd was poorly executed, due to some ninja logging.
Anywho, The corp CEO(Orca pilot) logged on, and had applied to the new corp, but he had forgotten to accept the application. A couple of us were online and attempted to track down the target while he was travelling to his new system(we succesfully pushed them out of our system.) We finally cought up to him, locked him, and right before we started firing, he accepted the application with another character, which dropped the orca as a war target, and we got a "if you do this, Concord pops you" message.

So, you're not allowed to apply to a Corp while in space, but you can be accepted into a corp while in space. I think you should at least have to be docked in both cases.

Overall though, even with all the annoyances that are involved with wardecs and allowed mechanics, nothing should be changed until CCP finds a way to balance the war dec system so that it's not so one sided.

P.S.
The Corp and characters of which we're certain were macro mining as a fleet were -

Corp - Bank of Panda

Orca Character -
acetylcholin

Hulk Characters -
athena ayasaki
hinagiku ayasaki
Testsujin

Reasons we know they're macros.
1) The orca is never there picking up ore, it's always out floating around serving up bonuses
2) 300km warp in from belts, distinct macro function
3) Mines asteroids that other players are mining, and will warp in on top of you to do so...(who does that intentionally?)
4) Convos are blocked by all the characters
5) I've bumped each of them off roids before and never once got a response or seen a human reaction(like leaving the belt)
6) If you war dec the corp they're in, they will imidiately jump corp and start a new one.
7) When we ganked them, they imidiately ninja logged.
8) All 4 characters are on 23/7 and minus the orca, always mining

Feel free to gank these characters wherever you see them, because myself and several others have reported them as macros and CCP has yet to do anything about it, so we'll just have to keep it up until the player is all out of isk to buy new hulks. Hopefully someone can pull off a nice orca gank.


I think the whole problem with waiting for them to fix it though, is that the day will prolly never come. Yes, it needs balancing, but some fixes to the little annoying things can be as effective as massive bug fixes.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-02-16 20:08:51 UTC
RatKnight1 wrote:

I think the whole problem with waiting for them to fix it though, is that the day will prolly never come. Yes, it needs balancing, but some fixes to the little annoying things can be as effective as massive bug fixes.

Well, the problem with that is most of the little fixes that you refer to make it even more one sided.
Such as getting rid of dec shield, players not being allowed to join or leave either corp, etc. etc.

Things like dec shield and not being allowed to jump ship or bring in mercs mostly go to help the aggressor because people rarely pick a fight with someone they find to be an equal or greater opponent.

Take 31ST Reliables Division [31RD]. A merc alliance. They don't even stay logged in. They will jump to the system they need to be in, then log in alts and monitor their targets in stations. Once their target undocks they will imidiately log in their characters(which I imagine are space logged).. This way they can engage you without you even knowing they're in your system. Unfortunately, I don't think this is something CCP can combat unless they deem it an exploit. However, this would also require CCP to monitor crap like this, which as I stated with the macro pilots we've reported, doesn't seem to happen often, however, if one of these macros or exploits were to be used against a CCP player, you bet your sweet @ss they'd do something about it.
tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
BORE
#8 - 2012-02-17 17:57:21 UTC
what irks me is that corp A can wardec corp B, but then corp A joins an alliance and now said alliance can beat the stuffing out of corp B, on top of everything else said here.

CCP should change it so that if corp A joins an alliance while they have an active wardec, they then have to either 1) pony up the rest of the money to join the war or 2) do nothing and allow the war to continue its course, the remainder of the alliance otherwise falling under CONCORD rules if they decide to shoot corp B without paying.

This change allows people to wardec a corp THEN join an alliance to gain lots of members, but of course have to pay lots of isk to do it (isk sinks!). It also prevents alliances from sending out individual corps to wardec then rejoin to dodge the alliance wardec fee.

Where the science gets done

Xolve
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-02-17 18:14:27 UTC
RatKnight1 wrote:
Yes, so when is CCP gonna get on this? This is perhaps one of the biggest issues in High Sec PVP.


RatKnight1 wrote:
This is perhaps one of the biggest issues in High Sec PVP.


RatKnight1 wrote:
biggest issues in High Sec PVP.


RatKnight1 wrote:
in High Sec PVP.


RatKnight1 wrote:
High Sec


LolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLol
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#10 - 2012-02-17 21:13:18 UTC
Let me see if I understood this right?


People are leaving and joining corps in space?


Because whether at war or not, this should be impossible. Unless CCP broke something.




If I am right, send many petitions and bug reports on this.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-02-17 21:16:39 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Corina Jarr wrote:
Let me see if I understood this right?


People are leaving and joining corps in space?


Because whether at war or not, this should be impossible. Unless CCP broke something.




If I am right, send many petitions and bug reports on this.


They cannot leave their current corp, nor apply to a new corp while in space.

However, if you have removed your roles in your current corp, and have applied to a new corp, then as soon as they accept the application, you are transferred into the new corp, even if you're in space.

This is confirmed because I did it when my corp built a new POS corp, and we had a guy do it do us.

But no, you cannot apply or leave your current corp while in space, only be accepted into a corp while in space if the application is already in.
Johannes Oliver Shiyurida
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-02-20 15:32:38 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:

If I am right, send many petitions and bug reports on this.


I have done petitions, but I was informed to post here in the forum not as petition.


Quote:
The forums are the official venue for players to make their opinions know to developers, as well as to have discussion with other players. I'm sorry but this is the only venue of contact.

Best regards,
GM Rust


Although, this isn't an opinion, this is a known exploit in the CCP community and within the CCP GM's.
Quote:
Corp hopping: This is never an exploit with one exception; you are not allowed to join a corporation that is at war while you are in space and in the same system as a war target of that corporation.

Senior GM Homonoia
The EVE Online Customer Support Team


I am still waiting for a Developers response?
Llyona
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#13 - 2012-03-17 06:31:01 UTC
I think I have a solution that would make both parties happy. I will demonstate this solution in scenarios.

[ Scenario 1 ]
Corp A Wardecs Corp B. Corp B does not want to participate in PvP action and does not participate in PVP action with Corp A. Corp B then utilizes a dec shield. All flows as it would now.

[ Scenario 2 ]
Corp A Wardecs Corp B. Corp B attacks Corp A, or defends themselves against an attack by Corp A and scores a kill. Corp B starts getting killed by Corp A more frequently than they like. Corp B decides to dec shield, but their application is denied as their corp has engaged in PVP action and successfully killed a rival pilot's ship.

[ Scenario 3 ]
Corp A Wardecs Corp B. Corp B has a member that is attacked by members of Corp A. Corp A decides to accept in-space applications from their corp hop cohorts, to increase their numbers so as to ensure victory. Corp B loses a ship and Corp A participants receive a kill. Corp A corp hoppers choose to leave Corp A, but their applications to any other corps are denied, as they have engaged in PVP action and successfully killed a rival pilot's ship. The pilot's are now locked to Corp B for the duration of the wardec.

I think this solution would provide a means to evade undesired PVP in high-sec, while locking members who desire PVP to specific corps and preventing corp hops.

EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure.

Robert Tables
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-03-17 07:59:31 UTC
I've seen something similar to this

You have Corp A and Corp B
Corp A is any corp or alliance. Corp B is a corp with only a CEO; those who would normally be members of Corp B hide in NPC Corp C. Members of NPC Corp C apply to join Corp B.
Corp B wardecs Corp A.
NPC Corp C members find a target in Corp A out and about. CEO of Corp B accepts application, Corp C member engages (and presumably kills) Corp A member. After combat, Corp B member drops corp and returns to NPC Corp C.

It's a very clever tactic, essentially the EVE equivalent of shooting from behind a crowd of human shields. Corp A can't effectively prosecute a war against their attackers, since they're not considered valid targets until they choose to make themselves targets when conditions are favorable. They can't be blockaded into a station or engaged in space.

When this happened to us, a member of our alliance lost a faction mission ship. He petitioned it as an exploit and the normally week-long wardec was over after 4 days.
marVLs
#15 - 2012-03-17 09:00:11 UTC
yup corp hopping is a SERIOUS BUG! not feature...Evil
Llyona
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#16 - 2012-03-17 18:28:56 UTC
marVLs wrote:
yup corp hopping is a SERIOUS BUG! not feature...Evil


I agree. Something else I thought of is the increased load frequent corp hops put on CCP servers.

My proposed solution would also decrease server loads by reducing the frequency of corp hops to somewhat legitimate levels.

EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure.

Johannes Oliver Shiyurida
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-03-28 14:07:02 UTC
I wonder if a developer has read this thread.

With all the petitions that have been sent, they must be aware of the issue. I just want to know, is CCP developing a patch to solve this issue.

Thank You

Daedalus II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-03-28 15:11:52 UTC
The next expansion will change the war mechanics, as said on fanfest.
Hopefully most of what you are illustrating will be fixed then.
Asudem
Black Spear.
#19 - 2012-03-28 16:13:07 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

So, you're not allowed to apply to a Corp while in space, but you can be accepted into a corp while in space. I think you should at least have to be docked in both cases.


That would solve it. Once the applying player docked after the his/her application had been accepted, he/she will be labeled as the new corp.
Astroniomix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-03-28 16:35:22 UTC
In theory this has been confirmed as an exploit and you should therefore be able to petition it. Problem is most GMs appear to be detarded. (some of the ISD guys might need a looking at too. One of them was in the rookie help channel telling everyone mining crystals last forever)
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