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Why the hate on shield caps/supers?
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Alphaphi
KASK Heavy logistics
#1 - 2012-03-15 08:16:45 UTC
so i have always seen people hate on shield super and shield caps, but yet not seen a single argument why they fail so bad that people want them to.
so.... why is it shield caps/supers sucks compared to the armor tanekd ones?
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-03-15 08:26:46 UTC
Most popular titans? Gallente and Amarr.
Their doomsday damage? Thermal and EM.
Shields lowest resists? EM and Thremal.

Also there is no shield version Slave implants (yet) and the stuff ccp fixed like shields not being 100% when jumping in.
Alphaphi
KASK Heavy logistics
#3 - 2012-03-15 08:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Alphaphi
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Most popular titans? Gallente and Amarr.
Their doomsday damage? Thermal and EM.
Shields lowest resists? EM and Thremal.

Also there is no shield version Slave implants (yet) and the stuff ccp fixed like shields not being 100% when jumping in.


well, the wyvern can get more EHP than a slaved armorsuper. (SC that is)

and well, Gjallarhorn deals explosive damage, which is armor tanked ships lowest resist.
but the point of those two being the most used are valid though.

but i really don't see the point in boycotting shield supers because of that.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-03-15 09:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Alphaphi wrote:
well, the wyvern can get more EHP than a slaved armorsuper. (SC that is)


Up until very recently, that was only achievable with officer invulns, which are extremely expensive even for a supercap. Even with the new a-type invulns, you have to devote all of your midslots to tanking mods if you want to have that kind of EHP. This leaves you with the need to gimp your resists if you fit utility midslot mods.

Ragnaroks aren't nearly as popular as armor titans.

There was also that little issue with shield HP bonuses being useless.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Nex apparatu5
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2012-03-15 11:14:59 UTC
Slaves mean that armor supers have more EHP than their shield counterparts.

If you want a tanky supercarrier, you go Aeon.

If you want to top killmails, you go Nyx.

Also, you can fit cool stuff like sebos without gimping your tank.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-03-15 11:57:17 UTC
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
Slaves mean that armor supers have more EHP than their shield counterparts.


the hitpoint reduction in Crucible balanced this out

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
The Vastator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-03-15 12:59:56 UTC
Andski wrote:
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
Slaves mean that armor supers have more EHP than their shield counterparts.


the hitpoint reduction in Crucible balanced this out

The hitpoint rebalance didn't fix this as only the hel got a subtle nerf on EHP. A bare aeon still has more EHP than a bare wyvern; This is before factoring slaves. The only thing going for shield caps and supercaps now is the cheaper invuls unlike the old ones that required you to cough out isk worth 3 times the value of the super cap hull.
It's been said before that CCP should create a cap shield extender or increase the shield HP of the affected caps and SCs.
Skorpynekomimi
#8 - 2012-03-15 13:10:43 UTC
Tracking is why. Tracking computers. Sensor boosters. Target painters.

Armour resists are passive. Can be used while neuted.
Damage Control II has high armour omni resists for a single low slot and next to no cap use.

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Mona X
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-03-15 16:14:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mona X
Until recently boosted shield had to recharge after every session change, So, if you've had leviathan as booster you would have only 62,5% of your shield at the begining of battle. And that means you're now primary.

Skorpynekomimi wrote:

Armour resists are passive. Can be used while neuted.


Doesn't matter.

I need new signature.
Liam Mirren
#10 - 2012-03-15 19:24:48 UTC
- No shield "slave" implants (about to be changed)
- previously you wouldn't get the actual shield HP bonus from leadership upon joining a fleet or jomping into a system, just shield max got increased.
- fitting/tanking/cap issues

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#11 - 2012-03-15 21:29:25 UTC
Tracking enhancers exist just like tracking computers do.

Most armor hardeners on Supers are active so the fact that shield hardners use cap is irrelevant.

Signal amplifyers, while not as good as sensor boosters, do exist.

And the fact that the Erebus/Avatar are the most popular titans and hit shield tank's "weakest" (I'll explain quoteation marks in a second) would be irrelevant if other people used the Leviathan and Ragnarok.

Also, most shield supers have a second EM hardener, and a large number use a second Thermal hardener as well so often kinetic is their weakest spot.



Honestly, more people would use shield supers if there were faction/officer Signal Amplifyers and if there was an actual shield version of the Slave set.

People just like to hate on shield supers because the Hel isnt as tanky as the Wyvern, which would mean reskilling to get at its better-than-the-Aeon tank (many many months) )none are as DPS'y as the Nyx, the Leviathan sucks because capital missiles cant be made into tracking titans, and they are adjusting to the fact shields are now practical (Welcome, arty-mael).

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-03-16 11:40:15 UTC
The Vastator wrote:
Andski wrote:
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
Slaves mean that armor supers have more EHP than their shield counterparts.


the hitpoint reduction in Crucible balanced this out

The hitpoint rebalance didn't fix this as only the hel got a subtle nerf on EHP. A bare aeon still has more EHP than a bare wyvern; This is before factoring slaves. The only thing going for shield caps and supercaps now is the cheaper invuls unlike the old ones that required you to cough out isk worth 3 times the value of the super cap hull.
It's been said before that CCP should create a cap shield extender or increase the shield HP of the affected caps and SCs.


and a fitted wyvern without shield hardwirings has substantially more EHP than a fitted aeon without slaves or hardwirings

interesting that how that turns out

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mona X
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-03-16 13:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mona X
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Tracking enhancers exist just like tracking computers do.


Except scripted officer computer boosts tracking by 42%, while enhancer by 20%.

M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Signal amplifyers, while not as good as sensor boosters, do exist.


Again: worse than active. Well, with incoming nerf, amplifiers on titan might have some redeeming qualities.

I need new signature.
Hemmo Paskiainen
#14 - 2012-03-17 01:18:17 UTC
Shield caps are too weak vs neuts. 6 neuting bs neuts mom ou in under 3 mins. after they melt rly quick




If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-03-17 02:02:48 UTC
i think a bit part of it is that supers take a long time to train for. the changes made are fairly recent. it's going to take a while for people to think that shield supers are worth it and the drop the isk for them. especially when CCP continues to make them only useful for bashing structures. these days you're better off training up for a maelstrom than a wyvern
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-03-17 09:47:10 UTC
- fleet bonused shield amout disappears after every session change
- no shield slave sets
- utility or tank, not both.

Although one big advantage the rag has Vs the erebus is tank and damage, just fyi.

In regards to ehp, overall they are not too dissimmilar as Andski said.

But yeah. session changes can knock 1/3 of your shield amount off while an armour tanker is still at full armour is the biggest reason really

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Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-03-17 09:57:08 UTC
Headerman wrote:
- fleet bonused shield amout disappears after every session change


Doesn't happen anymore
Mr Blue
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#18 - 2012-03-17 12:00:47 UTC
armor is the "standard" doctrine for capitals.

if you start fitting shield transporter on half of your supers/carriers you waste a lot of rep power. 50% of the fleets rep gonna end up only beeing 10% effective on over half of your fleet(all the armour tanked ones) and visa versa.

its like mixing shield and armor hacs in the same fleet trying to share the same logistic ships.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-03-17 14:36:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Mr Blue wrote:
armor is the "standard" doctrine for capitals.

if you start fitting shield transporter on half of your supers/carriers you waste a lot of rep power. 50% of the fleets rep gonna end up only beeing 10% effective on over half of your fleet(all the armour tanked ones) and visa versa.

its like mixing shield and armor hacs in the same fleet trying to share the same logistic ships.



So, since the major number of Supers/Titans are armour that means players have to crosstrain or will have to join an alliance using shield caps only or their Titan/super will only be used to bridge fleets and remote POS?


Super drakes in space is for soon? Lol
As it stands right now and armor supers/titans being dominant how will this get some equilibrium?
-you may loose a few armor supers/titans but since those will still be predominant, the most reasonable choice is obviously to continue armor but it's and endless story.
I'd be ok with that if training for those and their cost would be the same than a Battleship but since it isn't this armor argument bother me.

I'd like CCP to answer these two questions and also have your opinion on that.
Hamatitio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-03-17 15:19:47 UTC
Biggest thing was the hardener discrepancy. That and, no self respecting Supercap pilot flies without racial carrier 5. And the chimera/nid wasn't a carrier skill really worth taking to 5.
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