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Another vain call to abolish CSM

Author
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#21 - 2012-03-14 18:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


Your point. You don't have one.

I want to see examples, because you still aren't making any sense beyond terribly vague generality.

Name a position that Mittani has taken that isn't balanced...since you seem to know what issues we're talking about and I obviously don't.


Read my link blogged I provided it explains my stance as to why I have these opinions.

Otherwise there has been significant debate on various topics in the CSM forum surrounding this years elections which can be used to form an "informed" choice about candidates.


You mean this crap?

Grumpy Owly wrote:
[quote=Grumpy Owly]The main reason why the current members of the CSM have attained and appear to believe they can retain power is simply due to using their members to power bloc voting members from their null sec alliances.

As such the numbers and views show that a vast number of players are not interested in voting and thus whilst you may be blissfully unaware, your interests may not be being fully supported.

Chance are that if you are an industrialist, moreso a miner, a member who plays in high sec, low sec or worm hole space then your interests may be being neglected by the current CSM.

I wont tell you how to vote, but I would like to urge you to possibly research the issues further on the EvE forums but most importantly I would urge you to Vote in CSM 7 this March.


Considering the Mittani's Representation:

"One interesting stat to look at quickly might be the level of apathy or representation Mittens has.

According to his own reported figures in the last election he got 5k+ votes, keeping things simple and being generous lets make this 6k. According to CCP there are approx 745k active players. So assuming they are all even maxed out with 3 chars this means roughly (745k / 3) = 248k active accounts at least.

As such it means that the representation of active accounts based on the previous Mittani electorate at best is about:

(6 / 248) * 100 = 2.4 percent.

As such it is hardly a convincing figure that he does in fact unequivocally represent the player interest, far from it." - Delici Feelgood

It also means that it would take very little in terms of representative votes opposing the Mittani to easily re-address any power afforded to him through his bloc voting methods.


So you're taking Mittani's representation, which you fudge with pretty poor maths, and equating that to him having an unbalanced position?

Please tell me you've got more than this? Please tell me that you actually have some kind of facts?

Otherwise this looks like blind libel.

[Edit: You also encourage your readers (indirectly, through your incredible wishy-washyness) to split their votes, further ensuring that Mittani will win. You really are a bright, bright star!]

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-03-14 18:57:04 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


Your point. You don't have one.

I want to see examples, because you still aren't making any sense beyond terribly vague generality.

Name a position that Mittani has taken that isn't balanced...since you seem to know what issues we're talking about and I obviously don't.


Read my link blogged I provided it explains my stance as to why I have these opinions.

Otherwise there has been significant debate on various topics in the CSM forum surrounding this years elections which can be used to form an "informed" choice about candidates.


You mean this crap?

Grumpy Owly wrote:
[quote=Grumpy Owly]The main reason why the current members of the CSM have attained and appear to believe they can retain power is simply due to using their members to power bloc voting members from their null sec alliances.

As such the numbers and views show that a vast number of players are not interested in voting and thus whilst you may be blissfully unaware, your interests may not be being fully supported.

Chance are that if you are an industrialist, moreso a miner, a member who plays in high sec, low sec or worm hole space then your interests may be being neglected by the current CSM.

I wont tell you how to vote, but I would like to urge you to possibly research the issues further on the EvE forums but most importantly I would urge you to Vote in CSM 7 this March.


Considering the Mittani's Representation:

"One interesting stat to look at quickly might be the level of apathy or representation Mittens has.

According to his own reported figures in the last election he got 5k+ votes, keeping things simple and being generous lets make this 6k. According to CCP there are approx 745k active players. So assuming they are all even maxed out with 3 chars this means roughly (745k / 3) = 248k active accounts at least.

As such it means that the representation of active accounts based on the previous Mittani electorate at best is about:

(6 / 248) * 100 = 2.4 percent.

As such it is hardly a convincing figure that he does in fact unequivocally represent the player interest, far from it." - Delici Feelgood

It also means that it would take very little in terms of representative votes opposing the Mittani to easily re-address any power afforded to him through his bloc voting methods.


So you're taking Mittani's representation, which you fudge with pretty poor maths, and equating that to him having an unbalanced position?

Please tell me you've got more than this? Please tell me that you actually have some kind of facts?

Otherwise this looks like blind libel.

[Edit: You also encourage your readers (indirectly, through your incredible wishy-washyness) to split their votes, further ensuring that Mittani will win. You really are a bright, bright star!]


You have only provided a specific portion of the blog. Missed off a number of supporting points.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#23 - 2012-03-14 18:58:59 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
You have only provided a specific portion of the blog. Missed off a number of supporting points.


Your willingness to enlighten us is overwhelming.

How will the apathetic masses ever thank you?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-03-14 19:03:21 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
You have only provided a specific portion of the blog. Missed off a number of supporting points.


Your willingness to enlighten us is overwhelming.

How will the apathetic masses ever thank you?


I'm not going to hold a gun to anyone's head. I'm simply presenting information.

It's up to the convictions of the individual to support something and that is a personal choice.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#25 - 2012-03-14 19:05:45 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
You have only provided a specific portion of the blog. Missed off a number of supporting points.


Your willingness to enlighten us is overwhelming.

How will the apathetic masses ever thank you?


I'm not going to hold a gun to anyone's head. I'm simply presenting information.

It's up to the convictions of the individual to support something and that is a personal choice.


Where is said information?

Also - YOU TOLD THEM TO SPLIT THEIR VOTES!

Why in New Eden should anybody listen to a single thing that you have to say?

It seems rather like following the advice of their own (according to you) worst enemy.

Mittani wanted them to split their votes.

That's exactly what you told them to do. Good for you! You should join the CFC, bro!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2012-03-14 19:06:51 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
You have only provided a specific portion of the blog. Missed off a number of supporting points.
By the way, it's ~370k active accounts. Not 745, not 248. There is no way of knowing how many active players there are.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-03-14 19:10:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
You have only provided a specific portion of the blog. Missed off a number of supporting points.
By the way, it's ~370k active accounts. Not 745, not 248. There is no way of knowing how many active players there are.


I was using a previous citation from CCP Diagoras to forumlate a figure based on maxed out accounts as can be seen from the link.

But if I use your figure (if you can provide the citation) it makes the representation of Mittens position even worse reducing it to approx. 1.6%.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#28 - 2012-03-14 19:12:24 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
You have only provided a specific portion of the blog. Missed off a number of supporting points.
By the way, it's ~370k active accounts. Not 745, not 248. There is no way of knowing how many active players there are.


I was using a previous citation from CCP Diagoras to forumlate a figure based on maxed out accounts as can be seen from the link.

But if I use your figure (if you can provide the citation) it makes the representation of Mittens position even worse reducing it to approx. 1.6%.


Which really makes your advice stink all the worse, now, doesn't it?

I mean you could have stepped up and opposed him. You could have rallied the troops around a centrist candidate.

Yet you did nothing, and continue to do nothing but qq about representation.

Do you understand how monumentally fail this looks?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-03-14 19:19:31 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
You have only provided a specific portion of the blog. Missed off a number of supporting points.
By the way, it's ~370k active accounts. Not 745, not 248. There is no way of knowing how many active players there are.


I was using a previous citation from CCP Diagoras to forumlate a figure based on maxed out accounts as can be seen from the link.

But if I use your figure (if you can provide the citation) it makes the representation of Mittens position even worse reducing it to approx. 1.6%.


Which really makes your advice stink all the worse, now, doesn't it?

I mean you could have stepped up and opposed him. You could have rallied the troops around a centrist candidate.

Yet you did nothing, and continue to do nothing but qq about representation.

Do you understand how monumentally fail this looks?


Not really if I'm trying to encourage voting in an effort to reduce apathy. By maintaining a view of not encouraging or suggesting specifically who to vote for, it leaves it as a personal choice. This freedom of choice encourages a view to participate and not feel prescribed as to how people should vote. This to me actually helps with the apathy issue imho.

I feel confident that the candidates propoganda (good or bad), debates, manifestos and discussions with interested parties in their campaign threads provides the outcome of support as a result, although bloc voting issues will be apparent. The only stance I have which is obvious and has been for some time, is I don't support Mittens candidacy. But this is the motivation behind why I view it important to address the apathy of course.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#30 - 2012-03-14 19:24:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
You have only provided a specific portion of the blog. Missed off a number of supporting points.
By the way, it's ~370k active accounts. Not 745, not 248. There is no way of knowing how many active players there are.


I was using a previous citation from CCP Diagoras to forumlate a figure based on maxed out accounts as can be seen from the link.

But if I use your figure (if you can provide the citation) it makes the representation of Mittens position even worse reducing it to approx. 1.6%.


Which really makes your advice stink all the worse, now, doesn't it?

I mean you could have stepped up and opposed him. You could have rallied the troops around a centrist candidate.

Yet you did nothing, and continue to do nothing but qq about representation.

Do you understand how monumentally fail this looks?


Not really if I'm trying to encourage voting in an effort to reduce apathy. By maintaining a view of not encouraging or suggesting specifically who to vote for, it leaves it as a personal choice. This freedom of choice encourages a view to participate and not feel prescribed as to how people should vote. This to me actually helps with the apathy issue imho.

I feel confident that the candidates propoganda (good or bad), debates, manifestos and discussions with interested parties in their campaign threads provides the outcome of support as a result, although bloc voting issues will be apparent. The only stance I have which is obvious and has been for some time, is I don't support Mittens candidacy. But this is the motivation behind why I view it important to address the apathy of course.


It's so good of you to give people what they already had: Freedom of Choice!

I think that should be what FC stands for. In fleets from now on, I think the CFC FC's should leave it up to people to decide for themselves what to do, you know, instead of actually leading them.

Yes, you are the harbinger of a new era in EVE! An era where the game resembles a sandbox, and people do what they want!

You really think the apathetic read through Xenura's lolplatform? Hans Jagerblitzen? Seriously?

There were like forty candidates. Splitting the vote between all non-Mittani candidates is genius!

I can't wait until we quit using focused-fire in fleets. Who needs to call primaries when there's a whole enemy fleet of targets to pick from?

Thank you so much for this freedom of choice.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Hexus Draidin
Intersteller Masons
#31 - 2012-03-14 19:27:41 UTC
Watch out! We got an idealist over here!

I'm So Meta, Even This Acronym 

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-03-14 19:31:18 UTC
For those interested and thinking your overwhelmed by the volume of candidates or amount of debate.

There is a useful tool called Vote Match that can help to look at significant points and views the candidates may have.

You may still want to look at details further and ask specific questions of the candidates of course, but it may help as a tool to narrow down candidates to a shortlist to research.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#33 - 2012-03-14 19:32:57 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
For those interested and thinking your overwhelmed by the volume of candidates or amount of debate.

There is a useful tool called Vote Match that can help to look at significant points and views the candidates may have.

You may still want to look at details further and ask specific questions of the candidates of course, but it may help as a tool to narrow down candidates to a shortlist to research.


A vote for Mittani is a vote for freedom!

CFC: Coalition for Freedom of Choice!

Mittani is literally The Jesus.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-03-14 20:10:52 UTC
I for one liked the last CSM. They stopped the game from turning into Barbie INNN SPAAACE! which was really never that bad, but was unnecessary and pretty much useless. EVE needs more updates like Crucible. Stuff that actually betters how the game plays

Of course why do we need CSM if we can just voice our opinions on the forums or other mediums? The problem with that comes from the fact that there are two completely different and very large groups in EVE. The PVP community and the hi-sec Carebear community. Because of people having multiple accounts, each with multiple characters, it is very easy to inflate one side and make it look like more people share a certain opinion than meets the eye.

What the CSM gives us is the ability to pick someone that shares the same opinions as we do, and vote for them. Because votes are restricted to one per account, the numbers aren't inflated as much and CCP can more accurately see what the popular opinions are and base the game's future off of that.

Refusing to vote for CSM is pretty much the same as not sharing your opinion. If you hate something, then vote for someone that hates it too! Not voting just gives CCP the wrong ideas of what people want which causes them to make the decisions that we all ***** about in the forums.

Plus, I like all the chaos and tear inducing things that exist in EVE! A corp scam you? Then join as an alt and steal their stuff! People attacking your mining op? Recruit others and take the fight to them! All of the crazy things that can happen in EVE are what makes the game fun. Knowing you can be on top of the world one day and then easily booted to the bottom keeps people alert and more willing to log in every day to make sure that such a thing never happens. If EVE had no betrayal and bullying then EVE would be just another MMO.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2012-03-14 20:25:55 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:

There is more to EvE than just one issue.


Then Mittens is the candidate for you! He's the only one who hasn't tried to rally people around a single issue to get elected. People obsessing over a single issue is what made CSMs 1-5 so ineffective. It wasn't until CSM 6 that they decided to present a united front and actually got CCP to listen to reason.

Why anybody would want to go back to CSMs 1-5 where nothing got accomplished makes no sense.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2012-03-14 20:32:57 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:

There is more to EvE than just one issue.


Then Mittens is the candidate for you! He's the only one who hasn't tried to rally people around a single issue to get elected. People obsessing over a single issue is what made CSMs 1-5 so ineffective. It wasn't until CSM 6 that they decided to present a united front and actually got CCP to listen to reason.

Why anybody would want to go back to CSMs 1-5 where nothing got accomplished makes no sense.


So interesting that you now collectively support the works as the whole of the CSM 6, yet my objections are leveled or intended to be leveled at one candidate.

Here's an interesting opinion on the efforts of Mittens where as a result there seems to be more than one aspect of apathy or laziness that might need to be prevented as a result for CSM7. Blink
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#37 - 2012-03-14 20:51:03 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:

There is more to EvE than just one issue.


Then Mittens is the candidate for you! He's the only one who hasn't tried to rally people around a single issue to get elected. People obsessing over a single issue is what made CSMs 1-5 so ineffective. It wasn't until CSM 6 that they decided to present a united front and actually got CCP to listen to reason.

Why anybody would want to go back to CSMs 1-5 where nothing got accomplished makes no sense.


So interesting that you now collectively support the works as the whole of the CSM 6, yet my objections are leveled or intended to be leveled at one candidate.

Here's an interesting opinion on the efforts of Mittens where as a result there seems to be more than one aspect of apathy or laziness that might need to be prevented as a result for CSM7. Blink


You don't campaign against one specific candidate if you want things to get done the way you want them.

You campaign for somebody.

Where is your wisdom now? You're so apathetic you won't even pick a candidate to support.

So what you do is encourage people to split their voites and help the guy you didn't want in there in the first place.

All in a thread purporting that the CSM should be abolished?

Genius.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2012-03-14 20:59:11 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:

There is more to EvE than just one issue.


Then Mittens is the candidate for you! He's the only one who hasn't tried to rally people around a single issue to get elected. People obsessing over a single issue is what made CSMs 1-5 so ineffective. It wasn't until CSM 6 that they decided to present a united front and actually got CCP to listen to reason.

Why anybody would want to go back to CSMs 1-5 where nothing got accomplished makes no sense.


So interesting that you now collectively support the works as the whole of the CSM 6, yet my objections are leveled or intended to be leveled at one candidate.

Here's an interesting opinion on the efforts of Mittens where as a result there seems to be more than one aspect of apathy or laziness that might need to be prevented as a result for CSM7. Blink


You don't campaign against one specific candidate if you want things to get done the way you want them.

You campaign for somebody.

Where is your wisdom now? You're so apathetic you won't even pick a candidate to support.

So what you do is encourage people to split their voites and help the guy you didn't want in there in the first place.

All in a thread purporting that the CSM should be abolished?

Genius.


I have voted. The priviledge of the ballot box affords non-disclosure.

I simply encourage people to vote not how to vote, already stated this.

I would have thought it obvious that a "stop apathy" position actually supported the democratic process of the CSM as its trying to encourage effective representation. As such its a view supporting the CSM electorate process and as such the CSM based on the results. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence could connect the dots on this one.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#39 - 2012-03-14 21:01:11 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:

There is more to EvE than just one issue.


Then Mittens is the candidate for you! He's the only one who hasn't tried to rally people around a single issue to get elected. People obsessing over a single issue is what made CSMs 1-5 so ineffective. It wasn't until CSM 6 that they decided to present a united front and actually got CCP to listen to reason.

Why anybody would want to go back to CSMs 1-5 where nothing got accomplished makes no sense.


So interesting that you now collectively support the works as the whole of the CSM 6, yet my objections are leveled or intended to be leveled at one candidate.

Here's an interesting opinion on the efforts of Mittens where as a result there seems to be more than one aspect of apathy or laziness that might need to be prevented as a result for CSM7. Blink


You don't campaign against one specific candidate if you want things to get done the way you want them.

You campaign for somebody.

Where is your wisdom now? You're so apathetic you won't even pick a candidate to support.

So what you do is encourage people to split their voites and help the guy you didn't want in there in the first place.

All in a thread purporting that the CSM should be abolished?

Genius.


I have voted. The priviledge of the ballot box affords non-disclosure.

I simply encourage people to vote not how to vote, already stated this.

I would have thought it obvious that a "stop apathy" position actually supported the democratic process of the CSM as its trying to encourage effective representation. As such its a view supporting the CSM electorate process and as such the CSM based on the results. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence could connect the dots on this one.


OK so you support the CSM...so you support Mittani.

Glad we cleared that up. It's a good thing for those modica of intelligences.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-03-14 21:11:25 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

OK so you support the CSM...so you support Mittani.

Glad we cleared that up. It's a good thing for those modica of intelligences.


If Mittens gets elected to the CSM I wll accept it.

I do not support what he stands for however. Considering that I have declared this above with the use of the english language might provide some direct evidence to this view. But feel free to manipulate and interpret my views for me from your own point of view completing neglecting my stance. After all this is primarly how Mittens enacts his political views anyhow I guess.
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