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Frigates: Shield tanking vs Armor Tanking, Shields seem superior

Author
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#1 - 2011-09-23 06:31:01 UTC
Just a quick question really - I've been flying alot of frigates lately and it seems that Shield tanking is much better than armor tanking. I'm specifically comparing Medium shield extender frigates vs 200mm Plate + rep + damage control armor tanks. I've tried the Merlin, Rifter with MSE tank and I've tried the Tristan, Rifter, Punisher with the 200mm + rep tank and it seems the shield varients always can take way more damage and can out tank and kill you despite the fact that the armor fit often does more damage.

Can anyone enlighten me as to some suggestions on how to bring the armor tank up to the same level ?
foksieloy
Rockets ponies and rainbows
#2 - 2011-09-23 07:26:23 UTC
Your analysis does not seem complete.

Usually it is the armor tank that does less damage, but has more buffer, while shield tank has less buffer and more damage.

Also, shield tank ships are faster while armor tank ships have better control inside web range, and can opt for cap injection.

Reason for that is that armor tank occupies low slots, which are also used for damage mods, while shield tank occupies mid slots, which are also used for propulsion and electronic warfare.

Disclaimer: I do not actually play this game, I just forum warrior.

Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#3 - 2011-09-23 07:28:52 UTC
I realize that, but what I'm getting at is that the active armor tank seems much "softer" than the MSE tank. Easier to break.
foksieloy
Rockets ponies and rainbows
#4 - 2011-09-23 07:36:00 UTC
Actually, active armor tank does not work well on most frigates. Notable exception would be a vengeance.

Reason is that in order to be effective on a ship you need at least 2 repair modules. Vengeance can make do with 1 due to bonuses to armor resistances and excellent cap recharge.

On the other hand, a medium shield extender gives you a lot of shield HP which then translates to a pretty decent peak recharge, which coupled with hefty buffer means you need CONSISTENT hits to break the shield tanked ship.

While a pure buffer armor tank can be broken with incosistent damage over a prolonged period, shield is resistant to that due to natural recharge.

Thats why people put reppers on buffer armor tanked ships. You do not count on repairing all the time, you count on your armor base HP to keep you alive. Repairer is there to occasionally rep yourself up if the damage turns out to be inconsistent enough.

On frigates, the main armor tanking item is the plate, not the repair system. That one is just a bonus.

Disclaimer: I do not actually play this game, I just forum warrior.

tagen young
The Night Witch
#5 - 2011-09-23 10:16:20 UTC
As far as pure tanking is concerned I always prefer shield over armour if possible. However the huge drawback is using mids for tank rather than tackle. A shield rifter can be a huge surprise, but you give up a web to achieve this making it much harder to control range.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-09-23 10:42:11 UTC
tagen young wrote:
As far as pure tanking is concerned I always prefer shield over armour if possible. However the huge drawback is using mids for tank rather than tackle. A shield rifter can be a huge surprise, but you give up a web to achieve this making it much harder to control range.


And by harder you mean impossible. Shield rifters, good in a gang, terribad solo.

I got to admit a lot of what is being said in this thread hurts a bit. There are some things you are not mentioning here, for instance is the pvp or pve? I'll assume pvp

Merlin) MSE gives you tank and the trifecta in the mids. However, unless you use your last low slot for a nano, you will still be slower than an armor tanked rifter (sucks). Also, your dps is worse. You do have more health, but this adv can dissapear (nos rifter)

Shield rifter) as I said before, no web means you can't control range. Only thing it is good for is pickin up some extra speed, more dps and people loading the wrong ammo on you. Good for gangs, just plain terrible for solo.

Armor tank) Punisher, its missing a mid, so despite the awesome armor tank you need friends to go out in it.

Tristan, fine ship but you usually need people to be within 6km, and with the armor you are extremely slow (for a frig).

The rifter, golded child for the buffer+rep. Most of the time you see this pair with a nos. You only run your reps until you cap out in the rifter, then its done. Its teh only thing on your ship that usually eats cap, so you can get in close and keep your cap alive pretty long with the nos. A rep is on their usually because you have nothing better to do with the cap. Sometimes you can fit a nuet rifter with a 400 plate instead of the 200+rep, but in general a lot of people like having that extra buffer (cap+rep) It may not have quite as much EHP, but typically it will spank a MSE fit merlin, just sayin

I has all the eve inactivity

Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#7 - 2011-09-23 10:57:56 UTC
Hmmm - I seem to be having the opposite experience. This is what I'm running:

[Tristan, Tristan Rocket Blaster Armor]
Damage Control II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Armor Repairer II

J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
1MN Afterburner II

Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Ambit Extension I
Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I


Hobgoblin II x1

I really struggle vs shield fits with it. I overheat my weapons as soon as the battle starts. But often I get blam'd going into their last 10% shields or so. I've goy my armor tanking skills maxed and all gunnery support skills on 4. I've also got some small hardwirings. Any suggestions ?
Othran
Route One
#8 - 2011-09-23 12:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Karl is on the money here.

A Rifter or a Claw with armour repper will have a nos. You can run the repper for about 2:30 before you run out of cap and about 1:30 overheated.

If the Rifter/Claw pilot has a clue then the repper will be running as soon as you engage and it will still be running at the end of the fight.

I had loads of fun with the Claw in Factional Warfare - and just general roaming around :

[Claw, 200mm Plate Scram]
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Small Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II

J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
1MN Afterburner II

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Nosferatu II
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S

Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I

You can fit 400 plate on it too but it flies like a brick. Tanks 50dps and has max DPS of 170, which given the size/speed of the Claw is usually enough in a solo encounter.

Edit - the Claw is 30m sig radius so 25% of the opponents damage is negated even if you're not moving as small guns have a signature of 40m. A much under-rated ship IMHO.
Othran
Route One
#9 - 2011-09-23 12:51:28 UTC
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
Hmmm - I seem to be having the opposite experience. This is what I'm running:

[Tristan, Tristan Rocket Blaster Armor]
Damage Control II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Armor Repairer II

J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
1MN Afterburner II

Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Ambit Extension I
Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I


Hobgoblin II x1

I really struggle vs shield fits with it. I overheat my weapons as soon as the battle starts. But often I get blam'd going into their last 10% shields or so. I've goy my armor tanking skills maxed and all gunnery support skills on 4. I've also got some small hardwirings. Any suggestions ?


The blasters cap usage is your problem. Reppers work on minnie ships because of no cap usage on weapons.
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#10 - 2011-09-23 13:13:00 UTC
Ok - but I can't exactly not fit blasters on my ship. And most frigate combats are over in less than 60 secs anyways so that hardly matters anyway. So what do I replace the repper with that will give me similiar or more HP ?
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-09-23 14:07:36 UTC
Othran wrote:
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
Hmmm - I seem to be having the opposite experience. This is what I'm running:

[Tristan, Tristan Rocket Blaster Armor]
Damage Control II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Armor Repairer II

J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
1MN Afterburner II

Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Ambit Extension I
Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I


Hobgoblin II x1

I really struggle vs shield fits with it. I overheat my weapons as soon as the battle starts. But often I get blam'd going into their last 10% shields or so. I've goy my armor tanking skills maxed and all gunnery support skills on 4. I've also got some small hardwirings. Any suggestions ?


The blasters cap usage is your problem. Reppers work on minnie ships because of no cap usage on weapons.


I see your problem and raise you this...

[Tristan, Up close n Personal]
Small Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Small 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I

Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
1MN Afterburner II
Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Warrior II x1

pulse the second repper and keep the other guys cap low if you can keep hom in range this thing is as funny as hell to fly Roll

No Worries

Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-09-23 14:08:02 UTC
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
Ok - but I can't exactly not fit blasters on my ship. And most frigate combats are over in less than 60 secs anyways so that hardly matters anyway. So what do I replace the repper with that will give me similiar or more HP ?


you should be able to plop a 400mm plate on there and switch the SAR for a adapative (something), either boost a particular resist or get the one that boost all your resists.

On the flip side, since your slow, there is always the boosting, no web, double neut, SAR tristan (try it out, it puts a smile on my face)

I has all the eve inactivity

ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#13 - 2011-09-23 14:09:54 UTC
Well, it isn't quite fair to compare armor reps to shield buffer, after all active and passive tanking is different. You don't see many MSB frigs either aside from the occasional hawk for a pretty good reason, and that is that you would need to be full of cap boosters to even hope to active shield tank.

So why does the armor repper seem sorta popular? because it uses alot less cap than a shield booster which makes it pretty well suited for a rifter which doesn't have great cap as is, but also doesn't use any on it's guns. I have a tristan fit similarly, and I will say it doesn't perform as well, but it makes sense in some situations mainly FW plexes where not only can you have PVP, but also there is going to be PVE you will want to be able to rep afterwards if you decided to run the plex (though running in two armor buffer tristans with light armor maintenance bots works just as well for patching up armor). For normal solo PVP, buffer usually wins.

The problem is though, while shields can really be nice after all the merlin is my favorite tech one frigate on most of them such as the Rifter, Tristan, or incursus you are giving up precious ewar ability with your lack of mids to fit a MSE. A MSE rifter still needs a point and a propmod, but now has no room for a web or a tracking disruptor for the kiting style fit.

It isn't so much that armor or shields is better IMO, merely that from a solo point of view you really want those mids for tackle/ewar.
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#14 - 2011-09-23 14:23:21 UTC
karl please post your 400mm plate fit you use.
Gogo Seun Yabari
Doomheim
#15 - 2011-09-23 18:27:19 UTC
[Rifter, buffer]

Damage Control II
400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II

X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

150mm Light AutoCannon II
150mm Light AutoCannon II
150mm Light AutoCannon II
Rocket Launcher II

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I

Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
#16 - 2011-09-23 18:40:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Nexxala
Armor Rep AB Daredevil is pure win. In a Frig 1v1 the only thing you really have to worry about is a Sentinel if you know what you are doing. I have never lost one in a 1v1 vs another frigate. Fighting dramiels is nearly effortless.
Comet also works really well with a similar fit.

As for a general rule on whether shield is better then armor or vice versa on a frig...can't be done. It depends entirely on the ship and in some cases the situation.

Personally I don't think I have ever flown a shield fit frig.

nom nom

Hamatitio
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-09-23 20:17:05 UTC
Othran wrote:
Edit - the Claw is 30m sig radius so 25% of the opponents damage is negated even if you're not moving as small guns have a signature of 40m. A much under-rated ship IMHO.


This is not true of turrets, the signature of the turret vs the target is taken into account in hit chance in the formula:

ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)

Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#18 - 2011-09-23 20:40:27 UTC
Frigates have tanks? Big smile



Sorry, I fly griffins. When you've got 3 battleships jammed you don't need a tank.
Bor Navkjid
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-09-23 22:28:58 UTC
My wolf would like to have a word with you.
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#20 - 2011-09-23 22:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
I'm teasing, kind of sort of.

I just found this thread amusing because I had never bothered to contemplate the idea of a tank on my frigate. I really do run griffins.

In the kinds of battles I'm usually involved in the frigates are speed/sig tanking and you know they're either going to live because of your ECM and numbers, or they're going to die no matter how you tanked it because the enemy was just too much for you.

But if you must introduce me to your wolf, I'm only hard to find because I'm ultra-casual in hours played. Add me to your friends list and search the Delve Thunderdome area when I'm online on a weekend.

And bring friends, the more the merrier. Big smile Even if you can't find me, you'll find SOMEONE (or vice versa).
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