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Drones as a Primary Offense
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Corundum
Punishers Without Mercy
#1 - 2012-03-13 08:33:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Corundum
I. Overview
Drones are an often overlook route for offense. They have many advantages and disadvantages just like other offenses(turrets and missiles).

Advantages: high speed and close orbits make it so their target has a hard time damaging them
they do reliable damage and don't use ammo
Disadvantage: Fragile if hit by bombs, smartbombs and/or an enemy that they are not orbiting.
They are not instantaneous damage, as they have to travel from one target to the next.

II. The Problem “Drones can not be used as a primary offense”

Even in the best ship for drones (Myrmidon and Dominix) the max dps while only using tech II drones is 475. This is equal to a tanking battleship that doesn't have any damage modules.
The only way to use drone as a primary is to skill up for a carrier. The problem with that is for 90% of my time, I live and work in high security space; and even if I did get one, I don't have a secure space to store it in low/null sec.

Also, I can upgrade many things about drones: control range, tracking, optimal range, and on capital ships the amount of drones. However I can not upgrade my drones damage output.

III. Solution “The drone carrier”

I suggest a tech II variant of the tier 3 battleships (Abaddon, Hyperion, Rokh and Maelstrom) that uses drone as it's primary.
What I have worked out so far is that these ships need to play to roles. First they need to be able to deal enough damage with drones to compete with other tech II battleships. Secondly, they need to be able to tank damage while the drones are at work. So I propose the following.

Role Bonus: 95% Reduction in CPU and 98% Reduction in powergrid requirements for Drone Control Units

Drone Carrier Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per level.

This is done so that while the drones are dealing heavy damage, each drone has the same hitpoints as if it were used in a myrmidon or Dominix, and as such is still easy to kill with the usual methods.

Each ship would then get a bonus from there respective racial battleship skill in order to tank.

Amarr Battleship” 5% bonus to armor resists per level
Gallente Battleship: 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per level
Caldari Battleship: 5% bonus to shield resists per level
Minmartar Battleship: 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level

I would like to hear what everyone else this about this.
Marbin Drakon
Reboot Required
#2 - 2012-03-13 08:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Marbin Drakon
It would provide a bit more utility for the Advanced Drone Interfacing skill for those who don't often use DCUs on their carriers

The only problem I see would be lag generation, maybe a 20% drone damage bonus for each level of Advanced Drone Interfacing and no turret/launcher hardpoints?

I'd much rather see more generalized high-slot damage mods for drones though.

Eve W-Space: Open source wormhole mapping and corporation management: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=210073

Corundum
Punishers Without Mercy
#3 - 2012-03-13 09:16:48 UTC
Yeah, It would be nice to see that skill get used more, because as of now there is no reason to get it unless you are going for a carrier.

I don't know how bad to a lag spike more drones would cause, I'd imagine that these new ships would probably be primary'ed quickly and their drones offlined.

If the damage bonus had to be changed instead of more drones, I'd make it 20% for drone damage and 10% to drone hitpoints. just to keep the drones semi-fragile so that people don't complain that they are too hard to kill.
Cass Lie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-03-13 09:25:57 UTC
Some thoughts:

  • Tech II ships are all about specialization. What would be the purpose of tech II drone boats? From the mentioned bonuses, it would seem they would be great for all kinds of PvE and small PvP brawls, which doesn't seem specialized at all.
  • A specialized subcap drone boat doesn't fit outside of Gallente/Amarr.
  • I don't think EVE needs another ship with uber tank.
  • Drones actually can be used as a primary offense, but it is very situational. From time to time, someone takes out a big ishtar fleet and relies on the alpha and speed tanking. But yes, the damage is lacking a bit. Neut Domies are still going strong in the wh space. Myrmidon is a great ship for PvP. Also recently PL/NC. successfully tested a fleet doctrine of carriers loaded with sentries, which they can afford to replace under constant bombing runs.
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-03-13 13:48:43 UTC
TL:DR but anything about drones being something closer to a primary weapon for Gallente is good IMO. I really feel making the race even more directed to this combat would make the game more interesting and I only fly Minmatar...! So +1
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#6 - 2012-03-14 03:38:22 UTC
Drone rigs discussed here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=590734#post590734

It would be awesom, IMHO, if drone related upgrades and implants could be manufactured from drone poo. This would mean no minerals from drone poo, no bounties for drone kills, just drone poo that reprocesses to items used to manufacture rigs, modules and implants that buff drones.

PS: I suggest a means for manufacturing implants through PI & Dust514 interaction here: http://mararinn.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/resurrection-men-storyboard.html

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Helion Dhamphir
Necromatic Inc.
#7 - 2012-03-16 11:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Helion Dhamphir
I personally don't fly gallente, so i've never seen drones as much more than frigate killers for mission (though that view probably being the reason of this thread)


Using the Dominix hull and stats as a template and using your numbers

I'd imagine something like:

[insert name here]
5 High Slots ( maby more for neuts etc?)
6 Mid Slots
7 Low Slots
Cpu: 650 tf
Powergrid: 9,000 MW
0 turret/launcher Hardpoints
250 Mbit/s Bandwidth
400 m3 Drone Bay
600 m3 Cargo Bay


Role Bonus: 99% Reduction in CPU and 98.5% Reduction in powergrid requirements for Drone Control Units.

Drone Carrier Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per level.


Amarr Battleship” 5% bonus to armor resists per level
Gallente Battleship: 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per level
Caldari Battleship: 5% bonus to shield resists per level
Minmartar Battleship: 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#8 - 2012-03-16 11:44:53 UTC
Helion Dhamphir wrote:
I personally don't fly gallente, but i'd love to see that sort of mini-carrier.

Perhaps something like a battleship version of the guardian-vexor (just not as exclusive) capable of fielding 10 heavy drones?
With very limited turret/missile capabilities of course.


something like this.

Battle-ship sized/orca sized, capable of fielding 10 drones.
low/no gun capabilities
bonus to some type of high-slots (maybe neuts?)


i would personally like to have a mini-hoggur to cruise around in high-sec

ship passive could be 10-12% damage and mining done by drones and 10-20% increased hp per level.

and then of course some kind of racial scaling ability as well.
Helion Dhamphir
Necromatic Inc.
#9 - 2012-03-16 11:54:20 UTC
Yorick rashnikov wrote:
Helion Dhamphir wrote:
I personally don't fly gallente, but i'd love to see that sort of mini-carrier.

Perhaps something like a battleship version of the guardian-vexor (just not as exclusive) capable of fielding 10 heavy drones?
With very limited turret/missile capabilities of course.


something like this.

Battle-ship sized/orca sized, capable of fielding 10 drones.
low/no gun capabilities
bonus to some type of high-slots (maybe neuts?)


i would personally like to have a mini-hoggur to cruise around in high-sec

ship passive could be 10-12% damage and mining done by drones and 10-20% increased hp per level.

and then of course some kind of racial scaling ability as well.

Hehe you replied just as i was editing my post.

I don't think it should have any mining bonuses included, as cass said, Tech II are specialized ship, and making a boat that can do well in PvE, PvP and kick a retrievers butt in mining isn't exactly specialized ;p.

But yeah, a 10-15% bonus to Hp and damage sounds reasonable
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#10 - 2012-03-16 12:09:59 UTC
Helion Dhamphir wrote:
Yorick rashnikov wrote:
Helion Dhamphir wrote:
I personally don't fly gallente, but i'd love to see that sort of mini-carrier.

Perhaps something like a battleship version of the guardian-vexor (just not as exclusive) capable of fielding 10 heavy drones?
With very limited turret/missile capabilities of course.


something like this.

Battle-ship sized/orca sized, capable of fielding 10 drones.
low/no gun capabilities
bonus to some type of high-slots (maybe neuts?)


i would personally like to have a mini-hoggur to cruise around in high-sec

ship passive could be 10-12% damage and mining done by drones and 10-20% increased hp per level.

and then of course some kind of racial scaling ability as well.

Hehe you replied just as i was editing my post.

I don't think it should have any mining bonuses included, as cass said, Tech II are specialized ship, and making a boat that can do well in PvE, PvP and kick a retrievers butt in mining isn't exactly specialized ;p.

But yeah, a 10-15% bonus to Hp and damage sounds reasonable


true, it shouldnt be good at both PVE and PvP.
and taken with a point in a carrier, then it will only mine more than a retty if it have 5x DCU or 3x mining drone rig of t2 and t1.

and to be fair, it is a lot more skill intensive to use it, and by the time you could fly this ship, you could fly a hulk or mack.
Helion Dhamphir
Necromatic Inc.
#11 - 2012-03-16 12:19:01 UTC
Yorick rashnikov wrote:
Helion Dhamphir wrote:
Yorick rashnikov wrote:
Helion Dhamphir wrote:
I personally don't fly gallente, but i'd love to see that sort of mini-carrier.

Perhaps something like a battleship version of the guardian-vexor (just not as exclusive) capable of fielding 10 heavy drones?
With very limited turret/missile capabilities of course.


something like this.

Battle-ship sized/orca sized, capable of fielding 10 drones.
low/no gun capabilities
bonus to some type of high-slots (maybe neuts?)


i would personally like to have a mini-hoggur to cruise around in high-sec

ship passive could be 10-12% damage and mining done by drones and 10-20% increased hp per level.

and then of course some kind of racial scaling ability as well.

Hehe you replied just as i was editing my post.

I don't think it should have any mining bonuses included, as cass said, Tech II are specialized ship, and making a boat that can do well in PvE, PvP and kick a retrievers butt in mining isn't exactly specialized ;p.

But yeah, a 10-15% bonus to Hp and damage sounds reasonable


true, it shouldnt be good at both PVE and PvP.
and taken with a point in a carrier, then it will only mine more than a retty if it have 5x DCU or 3x mining drone rig of t2 and t1.

and to be fair, it is a lot more skill intensive to use it, and by the time you could fly this ship, you could fly a hulk or mack.




Well, a boat with 10 drones, 10% mining bonus per level (at level 5 in the example), without rigs would churn out more ore per minute than a fully skilled, T2 fit (though unrigged) retriever, without loosing any of it's offensive or defensive qualities (since it can simply switch drones when the need arise)

Anyhow, that's just my openion ;p won't discuss mining anymore (mining makes me sad :( )
Billy Kidd
Breaking Plaid
#12 - 2012-03-16 14:30:12 UTC
It seems like the biggest issue is that there aren't any low/medium/high slot modules that directly increase drone damage. All other weapon systems have a lowslot module to increase damage output, so why shouldn't drones have one too?

Three t2 damage modules increase total damage output by 65%, so a dominix with 5 ogre IIs and these damage modules would put out 744 dps. These modules could have battleship-level powergrid requirements so that they cater specifically to the dominix and its variants without making ishtars, gilas, and other smaller ships overpowered.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#13 - 2012-03-16 14:38:55 UTC
I think one reason CCP might be avoiding creating pure drone based DPS boats is because of how easy it would be to afk run/bot missions/anoms in them.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#14 - 2012-03-16 17:27:23 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
I think one reason CCP might be avoiding creating pure drone based DPS boats is because of how easy it would be to afk run/bot missions/anoms in them.

Just make the drones a bit less smart in their auto-targetting (more like FoF missiles) and this is not a problem.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-03-16 17:35:17 UTC
The problem with drones as a main weapon is that they can be killed, if Drones are your main weapon, then any fast frigate can easily leave you without your main weapon. Other main weapons that use Cap can be shut off but none of them can be destroyed without destroying the whole ship. Are you counting your turrets as a secondary weapon? For non-drone boats those are main weapons. Are you going to make drones so much stronger that other's people's main weapon (turrets) are secondary to them? Thats too strong.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#16 - 2012-03-16 19:44:23 UTC
Zyress wrote:
The problem with drones as a main weapon is that they can be killed, if Drones are your main weapon, then any fast frigate can easily leave you without your main weapon. Other main weapons that use Cap can be shut off but none of them can be destroyed without destroying the whole ship. Are you counting your turrets as a secondary weapon? For non-drone boats those are main weapons. Are you going to make drones so much stronger that other's people's main weapon (turrets) are secondary to them? Thats too strong.



So are you forgetting that Minny and Caldari don't need Cap to fire there weapons or were you hoping with the troll you must have been posting that people would overlook this. Gallente are supposed to be a drone race. With the current Game mechanics Drones can and will never be a main weapon system on Battleships. I think the myrm needs a little love on getting its damage up to the scale of other tier 2 battle cruisers but the main problem is that any Battleship fielding Drones as there main weapon will always be under DPS'ed compared to other ships. I don't think we need a whole new ship just for the sake of adding a new ship we only need damage mods just like every other weapon system in the game has. Make this a low slot so you cant have an Uber tank and Gank you need to chose one or the other.

I also dont feel that CCP is avoiding giving drones a bonus to dmg as it will lead to more Botting or AFK mission running as we already have people doing that in Tengues already and guess what they are in missile ships. Maybe CCP should nerf missiles so AFK Botting ends (Troll). CCP went a long way with the buff to hybrids to get them back on par with other races now they just need to re-look at Drones add into the game correct mods and readjust the correct ships so they will balance correctly with the new changes (Vexor, Abatratior, Curse, Pilgram, Ishtar, Myrm. Sin?
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#17 - 2012-03-16 20:06:31 UTC
A drone specialized ship should be able to approach the DPS of a turret or missile specialized ship of the same size class by trading away potential DPS from turrets or missiles.

Right now that is not a choice at all.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-03-16 20:10:23 UTC
I think they might be hesitant to put in drone damage mods because imagine how badass a carrier could be.
I see most people trying to treat this as a PVP boat, so I would say that rather than a repper boost for gallente and minmatar, put in an armor amount boost, that way all 4 can have a buffer but you are not impinging on predefined racial bonuses.
having 10 drones out is nice. but if they are going to make an all out drone subcap that can rule at PVP, what they should do is take away the damage boost since you have quite a few more drones, make it something like 50% more drone durability per level and have a base boost on the ship of something like 50-100% drone travel speed. with this, you have bricks flying at twice their normal speed that don't do much damage, but there's so many of them that it's almost impossible to stop them. plus make sure you can replace your swarm a few times before you're a sitting duck so something like a 750M3 or 1kM3 drone bay.
one thing that I brought up a while back was to make the kronos into this ship, or make another marauder. that way the gallente drone whore in many of us can have something to actually work towards. I got into the domi, then into a carrier, but since I sped most of my time in highsec I can't use the carrier skill and am now stuck training gunnery skills so I actually have something useful to do. and, with this route, we can keep it as a gallente thing while the other races can get a heavily specialised version of what they want.
Corundum
Punishers Without Mercy
#19 - 2012-03-17 00:57:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Corundum
so I got a tweet that really helps this topic.

Drone Damage Mods. https://twitter.com/#!/ktouborg/status/179546644604395522

Note: ok, so you have to copy and paste the link.