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Mad inflation

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Razin
The Scope
#81 - 2012-03-12 17:48:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Razin
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Fun Facts:

In the month of Feb:


~8.6T ISK in Incursion Payouts

~4.8T in Mission Rewards + Mission Bonuses
~32T in NPC bounty


So of the combined Incursion/Missions/Ratting/etc ISK faucet

~81% comes from non-Incursion activity


EDIT: Beaten. Damn you Soundwave!

However 19% does come from Incursions, and that's a pretty significant amount. What this means is that Incursions certainly don't need to be immune from inflation curbing activities.
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#82 - 2012-03-12 17:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2
Azure Moonlight wrote:
If currently 16% of all the ISK from all activities available in Eve comes from Incursions, I cant see how anyone can claim that THIS is not an issue. Or are 16% of all players (not characters, mind you) involved in Incursion running? I guess not.


Learn math.

Before incursion.

per 1bil isk injected per month
990 mil was sinked.

inflation 1% monthly - data from old days

After incursions per 1.190b isk injected per month
990 mil sinked + cost for lp concord store( how much is actually that i dont know, dont have data ), lets assume its 60mil per 1.190bil

That means after incursion inflation has risen from 1% up to 8,5% monthly
You still dont see the problem ???

It is very rough estimate but the point is it is 16% that wasn't there before, it is huge enough number to screw things up.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#83 - 2012-03-12 17:51:25 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
So your saying that there is a cap on the amount of isk in game? or are you saying that sell my plex to someone who earn't the isk from one of the many unlimited isk sources in game isn't effectively creating isk?

No, I'm saying that you can't “turn your PLEX into ISK”, which would imply that you burn a PLEX, and suddenly a bunch of ISK appears.

You can only trade PLEX for ISK that's already in the system — if no-one has any ISK to spare right now, your PLEX will be turned into exactly zero ISK (or, more accurately, it will not be traded). When you trade a PLEX, very little happens with the economy. A million or three is sunk through transaction taxes, and that's it (assuming you use the market or contracts). The effect is practically nil.

So no, PLEX do not create any ISK whatsoever — it actually removes some.
Maluscious Melody
The First Foundation
Legion of xXDEATHXx
#84 - 2012-03-12 17:53:23 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
How do you control the EVE economy when anyone can buy a PLEX out of game and turn it into isk?
…except that you cannot buy PLEX and turn it into ISK.

You can only buy PLEX and trade it for pre-existing ISK. PLEX are almost completely economy-neutral.


So your saying that there is a cap on the amount of isk in game? or are you saying that sell my plex to someone who earn't the isk from one of the many unlimited isk sources in game isn't effectively creating isk?


I believe Tippia is point out the following:

- When you run an incursion the ISK you obtain is spontaneously created from nothing

- When you sell a PLEX, the ISK you obtain was already in existence (where that ISK comes from is irrelevant, the point is that the ISK you personally obtain already existed in game because you obtained it through trade with another player)

The key comparison is between the incursion runner and the PLEX vendor, where as you appear to mistake the comparison to be between the incursion runner and the PLEX purchaser (which is a nonsensical one at best).
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#85 - 2012-03-12 17:56:31 UTC
How much ISK was paid out over the same time period in insurance?
How does that amount compare with the other sources of income we are discussing?

Ship destruction should be an ISK sink, not an ISK faucet.

I realize the implications and issues that would have to be dealt with, but frankly Insurance either needs to go or be completely reworked.

This would bring balance to the force. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-03-12 17:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Maluscious Melody wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
How do you control the EVE economy when anyone can buy a PLEX out of game and turn it into isk?
…except that you cannot buy PLEX and turn it into ISK.

You can only buy PLEX and trade it for pre-existing ISK. PLEX are almost completely economy-neutral.


So your saying that there is a cap on the amount of isk in game? or are you saying that sell my plex to someone who earn't the isk from one of the many unlimited isk sources in game isn't effectively creating isk?


I believe Tippia is point out the following:

- When you run an incursion the ISK you obtain is spontaneously created from nothing

- When you sell a PLEX, the ISK you obtain was already in existence (where that ISK comes from is irrelevant, the point is that the ISK you personally obtain already existed in game because you obtained it through trade with another player)

The key comparison is between the incursion runner and the PLEX vendor, where as you appear to mistake the comparison to be between the incursion runner and the PLEX purchaser (which is a nonsensical one at best).


I see your point of view. However mine is that if you can create isk from nothing by running missions or what ever and your only motivation to create that is is to buy a PLEX, that PLEX is effectively creating isk just buy being on the market. The player is just the middle man between the isk seller and the unlimited sources of isk in game..

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#87 - 2012-03-12 17:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Terminal Insanity wrote:
- Jumpclone USAGE fee
Now that's just mean… Cry

Rek Seven wrote:
I see your point of view. However mine is that if you can create isk from nothing by running missions or what ever and your only motivation to create that is is to buy a PLEX, that PLEX is effectively creating isk just buy being on the market. The player is just the middle man between the isk seller and the unlimited sources of isk in game..
The problem is that if you include that many steps, the distinction between what does what becomes not just pointless but completely impossible. Suddenly, everything creates ISK.

You run missions to buy new ships, so mining creates ISK.
You run missions to keep your POS fuelled, so PI creates ISK.
You run missions to pay wardec fees, so PvP creates ISK.
You run missions to keep your demanding CEO happy, so despotism creates ISK.


…or you can just look at all of those things and conclude that, no, what actually creates the ISK is those missions you keep running. Without the mission to create the ISK, none of the rest would (or even could) happen. Just because ISK is in demand for various reasons does not mean that those reasons are what creates the ISK — they just give you the impetus to go and engage in the things that actually do create the ISK.
Xylia Ailyx
Doomheim
#88 - 2012-03-12 18:02:34 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:

Learn math.

* numbers showing there is money in the system *


Learn what inflation is.
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#89 - 2012-03-12 18:03:04 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I see your point of view. However mine is that if you can create isk from nothing by running missions or what ever and your only motivation to create that is is to buy a PLEX, that PLEX is effectively creating isk just buy being on the market. The player is just the middle man between the isk seller and the unlimited sources of isk in game..

Roll This isn't a point of view issue. You're just wrong.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#90 - 2012-03-12 18:05:44 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
How much ISK was paid out over the same time period in insurance?
How does that amount compare with the other sources of income we are discussing?

Ship destruction should be an ISK sink, not an ISK faucet.

I realize the implications and issues that would have to be dealt with, but frankly Insurance either needs to go or be completely reworked.

This would bring balance to the force. Smile



They added a new huge isk faucet. We are getting inflation. This shouldn't be surprising.

If incursions are adding 23% of the isk that *all* of the bounties and mission rewards are adding to the game that is a huge amount of isk.

With insurance you are also sinking isk when you buy it. But insurance is there to encourage people to take some risks in the game. It shouldn't be taken away so more people can do the risk adverse pve grinds that incursions are.

Last time insurance was nerfed we saw a decrease in pvp. That is not good for the long term health of the game.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-03-12 18:08:43 UTC
KrakizBad wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
I see your point of view. However mine is that if you can create isk from nothing by running missions or what ever and your only motivation to create that is is to buy a PLEX, that PLEX is effectively creating isk just buy being on the market. The player is just the middle man between the isk seller and the unlimited sources of isk in game..

Roll This isn't a point of view issue. You're just wrong.


Fair enough, your entitled to your point of view about me being wrong. I make no claims of being an economist Blink

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Zircon Dasher
#92 - 2012-03-12 18:10:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Regardless, missions do not follow the same laws given that there is an infinite supply of them.
True, which is why they have classically been a source of worry…

…so when people are abandoning that infinite supply of ISK for something that's supposedly finite, that tells you something about what that finite activity can deliver, and why you should keep a very close eye on it.


You have your worry point all wrong.

Movement inside player action only denotes that (atm) thier personal wallets grow more doing incursions than doing other activities. Meaning that there is room for more efficiency in the harvesting of incusrion-based ISK. Since there is a hard cap on the amount of ISK that can be generated from Incursions, this trend logically continues until the ISK/hr each individual gains in thier wallet = the amount that could be gained from running missions/ratting/etc. Assuming, that is, that there are not intangible benefits also created by incursion running.

This does not alter the hard cap on the amount of ISK that can be generated from incursions. The same amount of ISK can be injected into the global economy if 1000 people run them or 1000000000000 people run them.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#93 - 2012-03-12 18:12:23 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
We're looking at the economy constantly and looking at our options.

One of the fundamental issues we have is that we're making everyone "better" at making money, so the effect kind of snowballs. Right now we're considering everything form increasing taxes to lowering bounties across the board.


That's good to hear.
Razin
The Scope
#94 - 2012-03-12 18:14:10 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
How much ISK was paid out over the same time period in insurance?
How does that amount compare with the other sources of income we are discussing?

Ship destruction should be an ISK sink, not an ISK faucet.

I realize the implications and issues that would have to be dealt with, but frankly Insurance either needs to go or be completely reworked.

This would bring balance to the force. Smile

From CCP information provided a couple of years ago the total insurance ISK influx was on par with mission agent reward payouts, however both were dwarfed by the rat bounties faucet.

This situation had to have deteriorated since then due to a decrease in insurance payments (lower payouts in general and zero payouts for concord deaths) and a severe increase in the rat bounty faucet (mainly due to Incursions).
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-03-12 18:16:35 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
How much ISK was paid out over the same time period in insurance?
How does that amount compare with the other sources of income we are discussing?

Ship destruction should be an ISK sink, not an ISK faucet.

I realize the implications and issues that would have to be dealt with, but frankly Insurance either needs to go or be completely reworked.

This would bring balance to the force. Smile


stop posting your awful, awful ideas

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#96 - 2012-03-12 18:16:44 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
This does not alter the hard cap on the amount of ISK that can be generated from incursions. The same amount of ISK can be injected into the global economy if 1000 people run them or 1000000000000 people run them.
No, but it alters how close the hard cap we can come, and again, if people are abandoning an infinite ISK source to get to it, it is a cause for worry since it tells us that we're nowhere near that yet and it's already a significant contributor to the ISK supply.
FeralShadow
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2012-03-12 18:18:30 UTC  |  Edited by: FeralShadow
I think incursions need to stay the way they are. There is no end to the amount of idiots easily scammed because they have too much isk and too little experience. (evil grin) I'll still be able to afford plenty of plexes.

Also: Posting in yet another doomsday thread.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Ersteen Hofs
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2012-03-12 18:19:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ersteen Hofs
tech moons is basically a way by which incursion (and other pve) isk are changing the hands to tech moon owners.

the less there will be pve isk, the less profitable tech moons will be.

as well as everything else, obviously...
gfldex
#99 - 2012-03-12 18:21:06 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Assuming, that is, that there are not intangible benefits also created by incursion running.


And there is one. Your sec status goes up quite nicely when you pop Sansha BS. So one could very well keep running Incursions even if the wallet is about to explode already.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Zircon Dasher
#100 - 2012-03-12 18:21:23 UTC
For those discussing the insurance faucet:

~3.4T payed out
~1.6T payed in

So insurance injected about 1.8T in Feb.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.