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Remove Alpha or Nerf
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Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#1 - 2012-03-12 11:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Keen Fallsword
Yesterday I was on the battle I didn't die but strange idea comes out :)

Remove alpha from the game. Why ?

Its not funny to die in one shoot. Every of us want to have good fun in this game. Eve is very time consuming not because you are dying but because logistics takes so long. Good fight is about time. Fight is / was good because was long. "Logistics are on field helping everyone to stay as long as possible".
So its stupid to have something like ALPHA fleet with so big DMG that logistics cant handle. Removing alpha can be good for tactic in game. Different fleets comps with many others ships / Jams / Damps etc.

Alpha is even worst now, because Ti-Di ...

Think about it.
Daeva Teresa
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-03-12 11:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Daeva Teresa
And how exactly do you want to "remove alfa"?

To nerf dmg, increase HP? You will just need more ships to alfa someone.

Its absolutely normal and one of the best strategies in any game to focuss yous units fire on one target at a time.

CCP really please dont use Upgraded, Limited, Experimental and Prototype in item names. It sounds like the item is actually worse than basic meta 1 item. Use Calibrated, Enhanced, Optimized and Upgraded. Its really easy to understand that the item is better than meta 1 and its also in alphabetic order.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#3 - 2012-03-12 11:48:05 UTC
Daeva Teresa wrote:
And how exactly do you want to "remove alfa"?

To nerf dmg, increase HP? You will just need more ships to alfa someone.

Its absolutely normal and one of the best strategies in any game to focuss yous units fire on one target at a time.


Well I don't know "HOW".

But I know that longest battle = more fun for all. That's the true right ? So more happy customers = more money in wallet.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-03-12 11:57:36 UTC
You CAN'T remove alpha damage from the game. Alpha damage is simply a common term for "everybody fire all a the same time and hope the initial hit is enough to kill the guy". This occurs because every pilot usually has a different cycle time with the exception of the very first shot which always fires as soon as you click. The only way to do away with it would be to make guns fire at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning...this would not only be stupid but likely game breaking.

The solution to your problem is to make sure everybody is fitted well enough to survive a decent Alpha strike. If the enemy alpha's your best tank fit...well...they deserve it and bring a better tank fit.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#5 - 2012-03-12 12:34:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Keen Fallsword
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
You CAN'T remove alpha damage from the game. Alpha damage is simply a common term for "everybody fire all a the same time and hope the initial hit is enough to kill the guy". This occurs because every pilot usually has a different cycle time with the exception of the very first shot which always fires as soon as you click. The only way to do away with it would be to make guns fire at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning...this would not only be stupid but likely game breaking.

The solution to your problem is to make sure everybody is fitted well enough to survive a decent Alpha strike. If the enemy alpha's your best tank fit...well...they deserve it and bring a better tank fit.


I was talking about ALPHA from Maelstroms / Artillery for me this weapon system is OPowered. Sorry !! I wasnt talking about alpha itself, because of coz you cant remove it from the game :) Everything else is OK I mean weapons systems. Rails, Lasers etc.. but projectiles ....

And YES you CANT survive Alpha strike from Maelstroms or Tornadoes .. that's the point
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-03-12 12:48:20 UTC
You can't survive alpha strike from anything. It's ******* alpha strike. This is possibly the worst suggestion I have ever seen.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#7 - 2012-03-12 13:18:07 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You can't survive alpha strike from anything. It's ******* alpha strike. This is possibly the worst suggestion I have ever seen.


why ?
Warp Warrior
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-03-12 13:28:39 UTC
The only way to make this "alpha" bearable in my eyes is to just compensate the reduction in damage mod with rate of fire, but in some way that's just stupid and doesn't make sense of removing one of projectile strengths. Everyone would start using lasers then if something like that happens.
Warp Warrior
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-03-12 13:33:55 UTC
Also sorry for the double post. Okay imaginary fleet of 50 maelstroms vs 50 maelstroms + 10 logistics on each side + command ship or t3. W/e you get the idea, get the max buffer, okay first 25 maelstroms would die from the others shooting with "alpha" but once one side is good enough with focusing fire, some side would be like 20 other would be 35, those 20 suddenly aren't enough to alpha any of those 35 and they are forced to warpout, althought 35 are still doing quite great and killing those pesky 20 maelstroms and their logistics. That's how the fight is determined, by how well fleets are cooperated. Also if you are going to counter-argument me with somethig like "so there is going to be only maelstroms in fleets or any other projectile based ship?" Well, grow a pair, other ships like mega, abaddon or w/e other armor tanked ship can fit 1600mm plates and say FU, live longer and prosper ! :D 800mm plates are = LSE, which is like 2x weaker than 1600mm plates. Uf i hope i covered why nerfing alpha is a terrible idea ;D
Aquila Draco
#10 - 2012-03-12 13:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Aquila Draco
Keen Fallsword wrote:
Daeva Teresa wrote:
And how exactly do you want to "remove alfa"?

To nerf dmg, increase HP? You will just need more ships to alfa someone.

Its absolutely normal and one of the best strategies in any game to focuss yous units fire on one target at a time.


Well I don't know "HOW".

But I know that longest battle = more fun for all. That's the true right ? So more happy customers = more money in wallet.




Its easy to "remove alfa".

Just make that all your guns do not shoot and deal dmg simultaneously (at the same time you click button).
Make it they fire and deal dmg through all cycle time.

It will look and feel better too - more realistic.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-03-12 14:35:22 UTC
Quote:
Every single one of Keen Fallsword's posts

You're either a pretty good troll or a complete ******* idiot.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#12 - 2012-03-12 14:45:20 UTC
Aquila Draco wrote:
Keen Fallsword wrote:
Daeva Teresa wrote:
And how exactly do you want to "remove alfa"?

To nerf dmg, increase HP? You will just need more ships to alfa someone.

Its absolutely normal and one of the best strategies in any game to focuss yous units fire on one target at a time.


Well I don't know "HOW".

But I know that longest battle = more fun for all. That's the true right ? So more happy customers = more money in wallet.




Its easy to "remove alfa".

Just make that all your guns do not shoot and deal dmg simultaneously (at the same time you click button).
Make it they fire and deal dmg through all cycle time.

It will look and feel better too - more realistic.



why is it more realistic? Looking at old WWII footage, seems most of the time that battleships fired *everything* at once, reloaded, then did it again.

As for what you're proposing OP, artillery only "has" alpha.

1400mm Artillery (T1, Meta 0):
Damage Modifier -- 10.672 x
Rate of fire -- 40.16 s
Rough volley (one gun, Phased Plasma) = 426 thermal, 85 Kinetic (we'll say 510 total for easy numbers)
Rough DPS (one gun) = 12.75


425mm Railgun (T1, Meta 0)
Damage Modifier -- 2.75 x
Rate of fire -- 10 s
Rough volley (one gun, Antimatter) = 55 thermal, 77 Kinetic (we'll say 130 total for easy numbers)
Rough DPS (one gun) = 13.2

Tachyon Beam Laser (T1, Meta 0)
Damage Modifier -- 4.5 x
Rate of fire -- 13 s
Rough volley (one gun, Multifreq) = 126 EM, 90 Thermal (we'll say 210 total for easy numbers)
Rough DPS (one gun) = 16.1

Yes, railguns (and hybrids in general) still need work.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-03-12 15:08:19 UTC
Keen Fallsword wrote:

Its not funny to die in one shoot. Every of us want to have good fun in this game. Eve is very time consuming not because you are dying but because logistics takes so long. Good fight is about time. Fight is / was good because was long. "Logistics are on

Pro-tip: Alpha fleets work on the exact opposite principle of grunt once during sex, roll over, and fall asleep.

tl;dr

It means, if you take your time like quite a bit of foreplay, you ******* lose the game. Enemy can counter you, they win.

Why do they use alpha?

Make a c hecklist of several tasks. Now try to do them all at once. Notice nothing gets done, because you are all over the place (uncoordinated fire). Everyone focus on one task, check -> Done!, check -> Done!, rinse repeate. Its harder to counter OMGWTF BBQ DON'T HIT ME IN THE FACE! when a single enemy gets lite up all at once by 25 guys on 1 target then it is for 25 guys shooting 25 targets.

As for artillery. It doesn't matter, cause before their buff a few years back it was alpha Tachs and 425mm hybrids. Players will ALWAYS cooridinate their fire to systematicly eliminate their opponents.
highonpop
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2012-03-12 15:33:43 UTC
You are thinking of "Alpha" as a game mechanic. like it is something that we turn on and off...


"Alpha" just means everyone shoot this target.... the only way to get rid of alpha is for everyone to shoot different targets.

"alpha" is just a side effective of everyone shooting the same target. Just like IRL if more than 1 person shoots the same thing at the same time, you will have a larger impact on the target. Just physics.

FC, what do?
Josef Stylin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-03-12 15:55:25 UTC
This is the stupidest thread i've seen all day.
Carmizan
Lords of Maelstrom
#16 - 2012-03-12 16:20:09 UTC
Keen Fallsword wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
You CAN'T remove alpha damage from the game. Alpha damage is simply a common term for "everybody fire all a the same time and hope the initial hit is enough to kill the guy". This occurs because every pilot usually has a different cycle time with the exception of the very first shot which always fires as soon as you click. The only way to do away with it would be to make guns fire at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning...this would not only be stupid but likely game breaking.

The solution to your problem is to make sure everybody is fitted well enough to survive a decent Alpha strike. If the enemy alpha's your best tank fit...well...they deserve it and bring a better tank fit.


I was talking about ALPHA from Maelstroms / Artillery for me this weapon system is OPowered. Sorry !! I wasnt talking about alpha itself, because of coz you cant remove it from the game :) Everything else is OK I mean weapons systems. Rails, Lasers etc.. but projectiles ....

And YES you CANT survive Alpha strike from Maelstroms or Tornadoes .. that's the point



So let me get this right.

You wish to scrap the only thing that makes Projectiles useful?

The only reason Maelstroms and Tornadoes are used is because they deal a massive blow in one hit. You would remove not only the use of these ships from the game, but make minmatar effectively a dead race.

Sorry no

Train you defence systems up.

As Josef Stylin said most stupidest thread today
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#17 - 2012-03-12 17:38:36 UTC
Josef Stylin wrote:
This is the stupidest thread i've seen all day.


Why ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-03-12 17:41:27 UTC
Keen Fallsword wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You can't survive alpha strike from anything. It's ******* alpha strike. This is possibly the worst suggestion I have ever seen.


why ?

Because if you're in a single ship and you have a whole bunch of really strong ships shooting at you, you die. That's how it works anywhere.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#19 - 2012-03-12 17:45:53 UTC
Keen Fallsword wrote:
Josef Stylin wrote:
This is the stupidest thread i've seen all day.


Why ?


Because it demonstrates a complete and utter lack of knowledge of the subject matter and a clear unwillingness/inability to sit down and think through the repercussions of an idea before posting it and claiming that you are solving a 'problem' (despite the fact that your 'problem' is, in fact, game mechanics working as intended).
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#20 - 2012-03-12 18:33:14 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Keen Fallsword wrote:
Josef Stylin wrote:
This is the stupidest thread i've seen all day.


Why ?


Because it demonstrates a complete and utter lack of knowledge of the subject matter and a clear unwillingness/inability to sit down and think through the repercussions of an idea before posting it and claiming that you are solving a 'problem' (despite the fact that your 'problem' is, in fact, game mechanics working as intended).


Haha wtf are you talking about ?
Im not talking about mechanics but Maelstrom.

In my post Alpha = Maelstrom. It was a shortcut ... Geeeeee relax Dude lol
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