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CCP! Please clarify the future plans for WiS!

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Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3521 - 2012-03-10 23:02:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Elanor Vega
CCP karkur wrote:
wow... just wow. I hope you guys are joking.
I'm sorry we are delivering something as well as working on wis... or no, actually I'm not sorry, I'm just sorry that some of you see it this way Sad


No, no, no...

I didn't write anything about what you are delivering.
I am writing about what you guys are not delivering.

Don't misunderstand me, i deeply respect you and all CCP devs.
I think that you are one of the best DEVs in MMO industry because you guys have vision and are working to achieve that; and you guys as development studio don't work only specially for money (at least you were not in the past, and i hope you do not now)

Why i wrote that was because, lets all be honest, honesty is not your strong side. Past is the witness.
You told us many different fairy tales (if not all fairy tales in the world) and we believed you, and then nothing comes out from one fairy tale, then second, then third...
We can neglect said things, it can be interpreted many ways , lets count only things where you showed us videos or pictures... you see my point.

That's why i am complaining, because we all know that isn't all you say the truth.
I only want that our voice is heard. We don't want noting that isn't promised to us, many times, many ways, for many years now.
And when i see name of team Avatar (And we are talking about team of only few devs here.) above 2/3 of things that is not about avatars i am afraid that team Avatar is only (again) one PR thing and that you are neglecting us, and WiS, again... and i ask myself, for how many years will this go on, and on, and on!?...
And we are talking about team of only few devs here.

My words are complains, but are not with bad intentions.
Aquila Draco
#3522 - 2012-03-11 09:36:24 UTC
Elanor Vega wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
wow... just wow. I hope you guys are joking.
I'm sorry we are delivering something as well as working on wis... or no, actually I'm not sorry, I'm just sorry that some of you see it this way Sad


No, no, no...

I didn't write anything about what you are delivering.
I am writing about what you guys are not delivering.

Don't misunderstand me, i deeply respect you and all CCP devs.
I think that you are one of the best DEVs in MMO industry because you guys have vision and are working to achieve that; and you guys as development studio don't work only specially for money (at least you were not in the past, and i hope you do not now)

Why i wrote that was because, lets all be honest, honesty is not your strong side. Past is the witness.
You told us many different fairy tales (if not all fairy tales in the world) and we believed you, and then nothing comes out from one fairy tale, then second, then third...
We can neglect said things, it can be interpreted many ways , lets count only things where you showed us videos or pictures... you see my point.

That's why i am complaining, because we all know that isn't all you say the truth.
I only want that our voice is heard. We don't want noting that isn't promised to us, many times, many ways, for many years now.
And when i see name of team Avatar (And we are talking about team of only few devs here.) above 2/3 of things that is not about avatars i am afraid that team Avatar is only (again) one PR thing and that you are neglecting us, and WiS, again... and i ask myself, for how many years will this go on, and on, and on!?...
And we are talking about team of only few devs here.

My words are complains, but are not with bad intentions.



CCP, thank you for everything, but this guy have a point.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3523 - 2012-03-11 10:33:23 UTC
Dear WiS fetishists,

Please continue to insult and belittle the devs that are working hard to make the game better for everybody. It will make them less likely to listen to your silly ideas about abandoning real Eve content for more space barbie foolishness.

Sincerely,

99% of Eve players

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#3524 - 2012-03-11 10:34:41 UTC
Aquila Draco wrote:
Elanor Vega wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
wow... just wow. I hope you guys are joking.
I'm sorry we are delivering something as well as working on wis... or no, actually I'm not sorry, I'm just sorry that some of you see it this way Sad


No, no, no...

I didn't write anything about what you are delivering.
I am writing about what you guys are not delivering.

Don't misunderstand me, i deeply respect you and all CCP devs.
I think that you are one of the best DEVs in MMO industry because you guys have vision and are working to achieve that; and you guys as development studio don't work only specially for money (at least you were not in the past, and i hope you do not now)

Why i wrote that was because, lets all be honest, honesty is not your strong side. Past is the witness.
You told us many different fairy tales (if not all fairy tales in the world) and we believed you, and then nothing comes out from one fairy tale, then second, then third...
We can neglect said things, it can be interpreted many ways , lets count only things where you showed us videos or pictures... you see my point.

That's why i am complaining, because we all know that isn't all you say the truth.
I only want that our voice is heard. We don't want noting that isn't promised to us, many times, many ways, for many years now.
And when i see name of team Avatar (And we are talking about team of only few devs here.) above 2/3 of things that is not about avatars i am afraid that team Avatar is only (again) one PR thing and that you are neglecting us, and WiS, again... and i ask myself, for how many years will this go on, and on, and on!?...
And we are talking about team of only few devs here.

My words are complains, but are not with bad intentions.



CCP, thank you for everything, but this guy have a point.


I don't think that they're actively lieing, but also they can't be trusted on the base of what they say and must be checked against what they do.

And what they do, is to put a couple of their big kahunas on a team purposed to work on avatars (but also multitasking on other issues). This team is delivering sutff that was to be delivered in winter 2011 post-Incarna and is claimed to be working on a plan to do major WiS stuff... a stage WiS should had gone through 5 to 6 years ago, nonetheless.

What CCP is not doing is to devote serious manpower to WiS. Neither is working on minor WiS stuff (I nickname it "CiC" or "chatting in CQ"). Also is not dealing with the NEx store and how 90% of its deliverable content has been locked frozen for well over 9 months.

My personal guess is that they plain don't have enough resources to do new stuff for EVE and deal with the EVE backlog of broken stuff. Specifically, I guess that their abbility to do new stuff is already at maximum capacity dealing with DUST and also WoD.

But they can't openly admit that the best option for players expecting WiS is to GTFO and pray that DUST is a hit. Only this way CCP could (if they wanted to) devote extra income to extra manpower to develop the sort of Jesus feature that would allow EVE to preach to the masses and not just to the grumpy, CSM empowered choir.

Seriously dudes. If you want WiS, pray that DUST hits the nail. As if DUST fails to provide hard cash to CCP, WiS is dead.
Pent'nor
#3525 - 2012-03-11 11:41:25 UTC
I am happy with the new Team Avatar. It is a step in a direction that I thought was lost a couple of months ago. Someone has a huge task before them in trying to figure out what wis should be and then creating beautiful flowcharts and other things that will be used by future teams. I cant imagine any of it being easy. The push that I'd like to see while they try to figure out what to do with wis is on making it meaningful, not just a glorified social mini game. Missions, killing (don't see why a station can't act as a huge pod for saving and downloading you to a new clone), Repairing ships, owning parts of a station... there is an endless amount of things, although I do fear with how wonderful the graphics are in the current CQ, our graphic cards would scream a toasty death if what I would like to see is implemented... We would need to be able to seriously dumb down the visuals/physics to be able to walk into a room full of avatars or npc's.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#3526 - 2012-03-11 16:16:49 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Seriously dudes. If you want WiS, pray that DUST hits the nail. As if DUST fails to provide hard cash to CCP, WiS is dead.


Glad to see you finally figured out what I was saying last year. Blink

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#3527 - 2012-03-11 17:05:36 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
[quote=Indahmawar Fazmarai

Seriously dudes. If you want WiS, pray that DUST hits the nail. As if DUST fails to provide hard cash to CCP, WiS is dead.[/quote

Glad to see you finally figured out what I was saying last year. Blink


The corolary is that EVE will also be dead without WiS, as it's the only thing it can do to outgrow the niche where it's cornered now without losing the niche dwellers.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3528 - 2012-03-11 17:55:47 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
[quote=Indahmawar Fazmarai

Seriously dudes. If you want WiS, pray that DUST hits the nail. As if DUST fails to provide hard cash to CCP, WiS is dead.[/quote

Glad to see you finally figured out what I was saying last year. Blink


The corolary is that EVE will also be dead without WiS, as it's the only thing it can do to outgrow the niche where it's cornered now without losing the niche dwellers.


It won't be dead, it'll just remain niche. It lived on for what, almost 9 years as niche game? It can probably continue to live quite a while as niche game.

One can also argue that WIS won't save EVE from being a niche game. What I mean is, even if they implement a full avatar system and all that jazz, the core of the game will still be the same - ships, complexity, etc. Avatars won't make the game suddenly very attractive to a while new player base. Not without changing core game mechanics, which has the potential to kill the current player base without attracting anyone new.

As for DUST, if they wanted money, perhaps they could have published it on PC instead of PS3? Speaking for myself and every EVE player I know personally, none of us have a PS3 console, and none of us are going to buy one for DUST alone. However, had they released Dust on Steam, for example, side by side with TF2 and the like, I know lots of folks that would have tried it just because it's something new. And who knows, maybe they'd get hooked.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#3529 - 2012-03-11 17:57:10 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
[quote=Indahmawar Fazmarai

Seriously dudes. If you want WiS, pray that DUST hits the nail. As if DUST fails to provide hard cash to CCP, WiS is dead.[/quote

Glad to see you finally figured out what I was saying last year. Blink


The corolary is that EVE will also be dead without WiS, as it's the only thing it can do to outgrow the niche where it's cornered now without losing the niche dwellers.


That sounds like a bunch of FUD to me, EVE has done just fine for a decade without WIS and it still is attracting new players. CCP was raking in the cash before they overextended themselves, and now that they have refocused they are slowly starting to recover.

A smarter argument instead of proposing that EVE will be doomed or dead without WIS, would be that EVE would benefit greatly and attract even more players via WIS that contained meaningful* gameplay and features that affect the rest of the game.

*meaningful does not mean more clothes, vanity crappola, emoting, mini-games or purely PVE content.


☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3530 - 2012-03-11 18:08:11 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
A smarter argument instead of proposing that EVE will be doomed or dead without WIS, would be that EVE would benefit greatly and attract even more players via WIS that contained meaningful* gameplay and features that affect the rest of the game.

*meaningful does not mean more clothes, vanity crappola, emoting, mini-games or purely PVE content.


That's the real problem with WIS. It may eventually prove to be impossible to add meaningful WIS gameplay to EVE the way it is.

I mean, picture this. You're a new player, never played EVE before. You log in for the first time, create your avatar. So far, awesome experience. Then you get your avatar into the world, you see the cabin, still nice. You walk outside, and see other players walking, talking, shopping, playing tabletop games, etc.

BUT, you have exactly 10k ISK in your wallet. Not much you can do with that. How can you make money so you can start having fun? Well, you don't have enough to trade with, and a new player will NOT sink extra $20 for a PLEX to turn into ISK for a game they're trying just out of curiosity. And that leaves them with - mining or ratting/missioning. Both of which are still as boring today as they were back in 2003, albeit a lot prettier. Player gets bored, player leaves.

The only way I see WIS working meaningfully is to merge DUST with EVE, and allow running avatar-based missions. In other words, turn it into something like Mass Effect. Because black market trading alone and games/gambling won't be enough. They could dabble in a little adult content (1.0 to 0.5 is PG-13, 0.5-0.1 is T, 0.0 rated M), but that might attract a TOTALLY wrong kind of people to the game, not to mention an awful lot of negative publicity.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#3531 - 2012-03-11 18:09:50 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
[quote=Indahmawar Fazmarai

Seriously dudes. If you want WiS, pray that DUST hits the nail. As if DUST fails to provide hard cash to CCP, WiS is dead.[/quote

Glad to see you finally figured out what I was saying last year. Blink


The corolary is that EVE will also be dead without WiS, as it's the only thing it can do to outgrow the niche where it's cornered now without losing the niche dwellers.


It won't be dead, it'll just remain niche. It lived on for what, almost 9 years as niche game? It can probably continue to live quite a while as niche game.

One can also argue that WIS won't save EVE from being a niche game. What I mean is, even if they implement a full avatar system and all that jazz, the core of the game will still be the same - ships, complexity, etc. Avatars won't make the game suddenly very attractive to a while new player base. Not without changing core game mechanics, which has the potential to kill the current player base without attracting anyone new.

As for DUST, if they wanted money, perhaps they could have published it on PC instead of PS3? Speaking for myself and every EVE player I know personally, none of us have a PS3 console, and none of us are going to buy one for DUST alone. However, had they released Dust on Steam, for example, side by side with TF2 and the like, I know lots of folks that would have tried it just because it's something new. And who knows, maybe they'd get hooked.



Well, they're going after an untapped source of customers: 63 million of PS3 owners.

Why don't have DUST for PC? Because it would attract exactly the kind of people who already are playing EVE. DUST is EVE on tarmac, and it would actually compete with EVE for customers... not a lot of future there.

When your trouble is that you've run out of potential customers, when you are already selling your game to everyone who could be interested in it, when your subscription rate an thus your revenue reaches stanflation... then all directions point down unless you begin selling something else to somebody else.

DUST to potential EVE players who don't own a PC or can't be bothered with the intricacies of FiS politics
WoD to people who would never buy a scifi dystopia
WiS to people who would buy your scifi dystopia on the assumption that sooner or later they would be allowed to stand on two feet.
Tsijha Zirud
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#3532 - 2012-03-11 18:24:42 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

WiS to people who would buy your scifi dystopia on the assumption that sooner or later they would be allowed to stand on two feet.


Looking at options for captians quarter:

My current precloned self has to agree
Crucis Cassiopeiae
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3533 - 2012-03-11 23:42:26 UTC
Ill rewrite (copy -> paste) part of what i said before, because i think i must do it again:




How you ppl can not understand... there is no EVE or WoD of DUST...
There is only CCP - the development studio.
They use tech they have or can buy for what ever they think will gain them more money.
All avatar and indor graphic is made for WoD and EVE have free tech that EVE would not got on its own. Its too $$$ tech to develop so that its only used for old game.
Yea... we must realize that -> EVE is old and look at other games that are old as EVE - either they are dead or there is successor on the way.
Because that EVE need something new or it will be dead.

You can say that EVE have 300.000/400.000 accounts so it can live long time with that. Well, look what you write to other players in game when they say that minerals they mine are free. OPPORTUNITY COST - if you invest your time in something and there is something that can get you more money for your time you loose money. There is moment in future when CCP will see that there is better new things to invest hundreds of devs and their time then in OLD EVE, and EVE is dead then.
You, dont letting eve to grow into the new areas to attract new players, are killing EVE. You are killing years of your time that you invested in this game. You are killing your money that you payed for game time.

There is only one direction, known to us, in which EVE can grow and that is WiS.
And there is tech being developed for other game that can make that happen.
Why are you dumb and not letting EVE to live and use that tech?
Why you want EVE dead?

And many ppl like WiS.
Many ppl want WiS.
Many ppl need WiS to play EVE.
So why not give CCP support to make EVE what they want to make from eve - Sci-Fi simulator - and make EVE Forever?

But, i know, there is small part of ppl that are afraid of new things, new ppl, new gameplay and want to things stay how they are. (And some ppl believed them in what ever they were telling them.)
But...
Well... thats impossible.
If you dont grow, you die.
Law of the stronger.


(its late here and i wrote this in half a sleep so i hope that you understand what i want to say.)


p.s.
I know that now i will be attacked my some ppl that many ppl leaved game because of WiS.
I said many times that if they have any evidence of that, show it, but they just love empty talk.
Ppl left because of golden ammo talk, but i don't have strenght to talk about that again.


... stuff ...

Vote Issler Dainze for CSM7! http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=470 
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3534 - 2012-03-11 23:45:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ladie Harlot
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
There is only one direction, known to us, in which EVE can grow and that is WiS.


Except that when CCP introduced WiS to the game they lost a bunch of subscribers and then had to lay off 20% of their employees.

I'm sure you can understand why we don't want to see Eve go in that direction again.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Crucis Cassiopeiae
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3535 - 2012-03-11 23:48:18 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
There is only one direction, known to us, in which EVE can grow and that is WiS.


Except that when CCP introduced WiS to the game they lost a bunch of subscribers and then had to lay off 20% of their employees.

I'm sure you can understand why we don't want to see Eve go in that direction again.



LOL... Lol

I knew that you or someone from the list of few ppl will write something like that... so... i wrote p.s. in my last post -> read it.

Vote Issler Dainze for CSM7! http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=470 
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3536 - 2012-03-11 23:51:02 UTC
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
There is only one direction, known to us, in which EVE can grow and that is WiS.


Except that when CCP introduced WiS to the game they lost a bunch of subscribers and then had to lay off 20% of their employees.

I'm sure you can understand why we don't want to see Eve go in that direction again.



LOL... Lol

I knew that you or someone from the list of few ppl will write something like that... so... i wrote p.s. in my last post -> read it.


So your assertion is that CCP had to lay off 20% of their employees because they *gained* customers after Incarna?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Crucis Cassiopeiae
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3537 - 2012-03-11 23:52:47 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
There is only one direction, known to us, in which EVE can grow and that is WiS.


Except that when CCP introduced WiS to the game they lost a bunch of subscribers and then had to lay off 20% of their employees.

I'm sure you can understand why we don't want to see Eve go in that direction again.



LOL... Lol

I knew that you or someone from the list of few ppl will write something like that... so... i wrote p.s. in my last post -> read it.


So your assertion is that CCP had to lay off 20% of their employees because they *gained* customers after Incarna?



No... they had to lay off 20% of theri employees because there was no WiS at all.

Vote Issler Dainze for CSM7! http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=470 
Wilhelm Riley
Doomheim
#3538 - 2012-03-12 01:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Wilhelm Riley
Eventually, EVE will NEED WIS, even if the current players don't see it this way. Sooner or later something will happen and EVE will need to adapt into something that's more than just spaceships.

If a lot of old players quit "because of WIS" it doesn't mean it'll stop a lot more new players from coming in, for the new players WIS will be normal and not something new that's to be feared.

..kinda like getting glasses. If you've never had glasses and you get some, your friends and family might note how different you look with them, but any new person you meet wont even notice because they've never seen you without them.

That's my pearl of WISdom for the day.

Edit: Wait, I'm not finished.

If the old players don't want it, they can't decide what's right or wrong for new players.. old players saying they don't want WIS is just them being selfish.. interesting.
Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#3539 - 2012-03-12 01:19:54 UTC
Man i love reading my daily WiS QQ

Pandas that way etc. etc.

CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool
Ai Shun
#3540 - 2012-03-12 01:38:52 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
DUST to potential EVE players who don't own a PC or can't be bothered with the intricacies of FiS politics
WoD to people who would never buy a scifi dystopia
WiS to people who would buy your scifi dystopia on the assumption that sooner or later they would be allowed to stand on two feet.


That is a compelling argument for WiS to be a separate, yet linked game like Dust 514. I still believe that is their best way forward. WiS should be a separate game, like DUST, with its own gameplay and direction and be completely optional. This allows them to market it to the wider MMO populace without polluting the FiS component with a completely different gameplay. They can focus a proper development team on it and sell it as a separate product along with microtransactions and all the other goodies.

Then allow an EVE pilot to be able to use their EVE avatar in-game, slap on some smart, Dust-like interaction between the two and voila.