EVE General Discussion

You're confusing two different issues:

One is that incursions is a very large ISK faucet. Another is that it's a very attractive ISK faucet due to how much it pays out per person. The former is an issue already; the latter is not just a problem on its own, but can also worsen the first issue.

Because you're claiming that if we look at it per capita, it somehow changes place from being the largest faucet (which it never was) into one of the smallest (which it doesn't, and isn't). You seem to think that adding per capita somehow changes the order of the faucets. It doesn't. Incursions start out as the third largest with its 300bn ISK a day, and it remains the third largest even if we look at that as 430k ISK per character per day.

Same problem here: you're confusing two different issues: one is the affect of the six (actually eight) faucets, where incursion comes it as a strong #3. The other (the one you're talking about now) is how much each participant generates, which on the one hand means that even small variations have large effects, and on the other hand means that incursions are very attractive. The inclusion of all things mission-related into a signle category is for this latter problem: to demonstrate how little effect the individual mission runner has, and to show that we have a new contender for the “why do anything else?” throne (which was previously considered to be held by L4s) and why this is a problematic shift.

Faucets are one thing (and there are eight of them). Activities are another (and there are upwards of a hundred of those, which may or may not activate any number of faucets and sinks).

…then you did something wrong if it came out as a quarter. As for which one it's closer to, that's problem with relative percentages — they vary in value depending on where on the scale you are. It's the same problem people face when trying to compare resists, for instance, and think that a 3pp difference in resist percentages means something has 3% better resists.

Let's say it's roughly a third: 301.8bn ×3 = 905.4bn → we're off-target by 100bn.
Let's say it's roughly a quarter: 301.8bn ×4 = 1,207.2 → we're off-target by over 200bn.

So no, a third is a closer estimate (and as a bonus, it falls within The Price Is Right-rules… ). By the way, it's not particularly cherry-picked — it's the data CCP made available, and in the cases where they also provided monthly totals, the data for that day largely matches what was the average for the day they chose.

No, this is the point where you explain why it's not what matters for EVE and why the good Doctor is wrong in worrying about how the growth of the money supply outpaces the growth of production (and destruction). This is the point where you actually address the worries: that in a time when we already have too much ISK entering the economy (which every source available to us tells us is happening), maybe a mechanic that does this far more efficiently than anything we've known so far might not be the best idea, and that scaling it back or converting it into a sink might be a better idea. Also, that having such a spectacularly efficient earner might be bad for the game outside of any economical considerations.

As for any ad hominems, misreadings or cherry-pickings, please point them out. And try to not make another straw man out of it.

Fun facts from CCP Recurve shows that there is an increased inflation rate in the EVE economy beginning in 2010 after a few years of relatively stable prices.

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3295

It is also interesting to see that while consumer price index went up by 13.5% mineral prices went up 17.4%! That might indicate a pressure on consumer prices to rise at an even higher rate in the future when the price of minerals are fully accounted for.

Most will agree that when too much ISK is injected and too little is sinked there will be inflation.

Incursionrunners make (inject) a lot of ISK. It might even be the most efficient way for most players to maximize the amount of ISK they can inject into the economy. As the numbers show, incursionrunners already do inject a size-able proportion of all ISK in EVE today. That is why incursions are a problem.

We really don't need players to become more efficient in injecting ISK.

However, the problem we have now will pale in comparison with what we might have when the another faucet is opened up in the drone regions. Hopefully, CCP is fully aware of that and are currently calculating how they will sink all these ISK. My bet is on a new CONCORD fee for protection in highsec.

http://pastebin.com/jBjcB5Gr

in eve stuff is supplied by players.

Costs can be measured in man-hours to get the thing done.

Rate of exchange depends mainly on instant demand.

Simply because virtual markets in eve are nearly perfect, no obstacles to move or to trade.

Heck there is not even political and geographical limitations. Outside of null space.

EMPIRE is full of trade hubs, by laws of exchange.

NULL sec is mainly imperfect monopoly, limited competition and single supplier, only one type of product available. Null is like natural resource economies. Supply commodities to empire, costs of industry and risks are outrageous. Export resources, import finished products, lack of variation on the markets.

WH is full barter + delayed payment, no way to organize markets, no stations for infrastructure.

NPC insurance, finance, bounties do not work as intended and are easily abused. Totaly broken.

I've answered this same basic claim several times. My answer hasn't changed.




You wrote:
"aside from showing that they are a massive ISK faucet that surpasses pretty much anything on a per-person level."

I wrote:
"So, Incursions, instead of being the largest contributor to isk in the game as a per capita, is actually one of the smallest inputs into the community, when examined per capital, and therefore it is one of the least possible contributors to rising prices/inflation (assuming that's what people are worried about.) "

You keep interpreting what I wrote in a very narrow way, despite all the evidence from what I have post that demonstrates your interpretation of what I wrote is not justified.

Your tone is much more civil in this post, but you are still just playing semantic games instead of dealing with the substantive points here. This above, is not a substantive issue.




We're back to you being panicky about what Incursions might do. Yeah, more people might do them. This has not been a point of contention with us.

Will they? As we know, mission running bounties grew faster than Incursion awards over the last month. There are reasons to think people won't.

But you've lost the plot here. I was responding to the sheer dishonest of calling me a liar. I told you what I was calculating and why.



A month's worth of data, which you obviously had access to because it was on your blog, has more statistical significance than a day's. You had access to both. You knew which one had more reliability, and you chose the one that worked best for your argument ... and even that ended up not working.

It's an admirable attempt to get out of this, but you screwed up and you screwed up hard. Just apologize for the error and move on.



I have time and time again said I have no skin in the game. I don't care if prices are going up or down. I have no preconceived notion of what "normal" is when it comes to prices in Eve. I am perfectly pliable on the subject of whether or not there is Inflation in Eve and that it could be a problem. I have been asking the same questions: What is the problem with the economy? Is that problem inflation? And is that inflation caused by Incursions.

If we have sources that tell us there's too much isk entering the economy, link them. You've tried several gambits around this point and they've all come up stinkers. But if you had these laying around you should have just put them up in the first place.

You've made an inferential leap between Incursions and inflation in the economy and you refuse to square that circle.

No. They haven't. That's the point. You wave your hands at the amount of isk Incursions generate. You wave your hands in the air and scream inflation. Then you say, "see, proven".

Let's try something easier. A thought experiment. If we didn't have PLEX in the game. Would you consider inflation to be a bad think to happen in the Eve economy? Why or why not?

What about deflation? Why or why not?


I say "if we didn't have PLEX in the game" only because I know there are people who are going through tough personal times and they use the game as a release, and making PLEX really expensive would make it hard on them. So, I'm trying not to be completely heartless.

Jeez, get a room you two, you're boring the pants off the rest of us.

isk inflation is only bad if growth of isk income doesn't keep up
p sure the incursion guys are keeping up so vOv

Eve economy is broken because "What I mined was free".

FACT: As long as market bots run on EVE the market is broken.

Can't trust central bankers (although Doc E isn't exactly a central banker in the normal sense) and their adjectives. We can be sure he isn't going to use the words "alarming", "excessive" or "high" as it would send panics through markets.