These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Marauders: Underwhelming. Fix Ideas

Author
m3talc0re X
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#201 - 2012-03-09 14:25:41 UTC
Slumber Hawk wrote:
As a VARGUR pilot myself I think the ship is fine.
In my experience, most of the time, the outfitting people want on that ship isn't

This thread does signifies that people are looking forward to the next t2 BS, with a different role than the black ops or marauder.
Just read through all the posts to see the iteration of differences/additions towards this next BS role class.


Exactly, people are suggesting things that would be on an entirely different ship. NOT marauders. The Vargur is alright, I think it could use a bit of PG though -_- I think it should get a TP bonus, also. Mainly because it needs a web/tp bonus like the other marauders, and TP being a Minmatar module... (rp wise).
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#202 - 2012-03-09 18:25:42 UTC
Ya know, reguardless of what we think or if we agree with each other, a dev post would be nice.

Obviously they can't tell us what they're going to do to address Marauders, but they could at least let us know if they're going to address Marauders or not.



Back on topic though, I'd like to push my suggestion of npc ewar immunity. Yeah, I know I've said it a lot, but each Marauder has its own issues. However, their weaknesses to ewar is the one thing they have in common, and probably the only thing the Golem would really need (except maybe a 3rd rig slot to help out with tank, or applied dps).

The only reason I keep pushing npc ewar immunity is because it's the only way we can address Marauder weaknesses without making them pvp capable ships, which would lead to nerfs and other balancings.
I also feel that while buffing their sensor strength and scan res would help them in pve, it wouldn't be enough to make them the kings of pve.
Marauders are the only ship in Eve that is specifically dedicated to pve combat. With that in mind, they should be the best at it, and not just in lvl 4 missions.
NPC ewar immunity is the best way to address this without causing other issues.

There is no ship better at logistics than logistics ships. There is no ship better at intercepting than interceptors. There is no ship better at interdiction than interdictors. So why are their so many ships that are better at pve than Marauders?
Drop-Me-Own-Stocks Darius
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#203 - 2012-03-09 20:56:40 UTC
I think combining the Golem and Paladin sounds like a good idea. I just don't know if CCP could keep it balanced, though (unless they nerf it).

It would probably also cause balance issues if the Kronos and Vargur got merged.
Who would like to buy a melon?  Madame, would you like to buy a--   ...oh. I see you've already got some.   Who would like to buy a melon?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#204 - 2012-03-09 21:07:24 UTC
Drop-Me-Own-Stocks Darius wrote:
I think combining the Golem and Paladin sounds like a good idea. I just don't know if CCP could keep it balanced, though (unless they nerf it).

It would probably also cause balance issues if the Kronos and Vargur got merged.


I don't too much like this idea... The reason why is because instead of balancing 4 ships for their task, now you'd have to design, rebalance, implement, and players would have to cross train in order to pilot these ships. Not to mention we'd only have 2 ships instead of 4.

I think i'd rather have 4 ships designed to be the pennacle of their race's pve capability, instead of 2 randomly thought out ships.

Now, if they made pirate faction Marauders that you would have to cross train for, on top of the existing marauders, then sure, that would be cool. However, they'd probably end up costing a lot more, but they would have more function....
m3talc0re X
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#205 - 2012-03-10 00:47:31 UTC
No and no. They would completely obsolete current Marauders (they're bordering on that edge already). And why would we want two ships instead of four? -_-
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#206 - 2012-03-10 09:56:16 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Hans Momaki wrote:

Well, how many missions are out there, with BS's under 40 KM away? (the golem shines here)
How many missions have more BS's then cruisers in it? With my CNR, I can two hit most cruisers with T1 Ammo. Furys tend to kill BS's in 5 Volleys too. I Fail to see an improvment here, especially with the drawbacks the golem is having. Try missions like blockade // mining mis. // AE with your limited range..


OK, my fit

Rigs
Hydraulic bay thrusters II
Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II

Lows
4 x ballistic control system II

Mids
2x phased navigation array (target painter)
Gist x-type large shield booster
Photon scattering field II
3 x invuln field II (when omni tanking a mission)

Highs
4 x siege missile launcher 2

I have missile bombardment and missile projection to lvl 5. So
Javelin - 715 dps (fairly good applied due to 2 tps) at about 65.6km(58 with accel time)
Rage - 1016 dps (fairly good applied at bs's due to 2tps) at 38.9km(32 with accel time)

I have enough cap for 4m 32s.
Tank when in omni fit
em- 468
therm - 459
kin - 524
Exp - 550
I can pull out much more tank and have a bit more cap if I tank mission specific, and if you wanna spend the big bucks and get a pithum a-type medium shield booster, then
Your tank will go down by about 40 points, but you'll have 8 min of cap, and if you buy faction or ded space resistances then it will come back up and you'll probably be cap stable.

You may have great dps at great range, but I have awesome dps at close range, with much more tank, and much more effective dps thanks to the 2 target painters. Fit 2 target painters on a raven navy and you'll be hurting for tank.

P.S.
I just fitted out a raven Navy with 7 cruise launchers and the lows loaded down with ballistic controls.
With all skills lvl 5 and fury cruise missiles the dps is 728. I put 2 target painters for effective dps cause without it you're just waisting volleys. The dps is only slightly better than a golem with javelin torps, but the javelin's are more precise, therefore, better effective dps. Not to mention that even with the rigs fitted with ccc's you have less cap and much weaker tank with a sig radius that's only 60m smaller than mine with you fitting fury and me fitting rage torps.

So i'd say overall the golem spanks the cnr and shows it a thing or two about tank and applied dps. Now, if only the golem didn't have to worry about being jammed out in missions.


WoW, I've almost forgotten about this..

Lets break it down.

Jav's need 2 fully bonused tp's to accomplish a competitive percentage of dmg application like T2 Fury's on a raven with just 1 TP. (which is not hurting the tank. You really need to do your homework on dmg application- rigs/skills/imps. You can cut down Explo-radius on a CNR to something around 250 baseline without the tp. Consider the TP, and your javs can't beat furys with 3 TP's either).

Sure, you may have more raw dmg, but a Golem with 3 TP'S can't beat a CNR on dmg application.

But, since you are not the genius on maths (well. I'm not either..), go out and just do an Guristas assault. You will see why the Golem is a crapship. :D
Screenlag
Rosendal Research and Development
#207 - 2012-03-10 10:48:03 UTC
Give marauders 500 calibration
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#208 - 2012-03-10 18:09:00 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:


WoW, I've almost forgotten about this..

Lets break it down.

Jav's need 2 fully bonused tp's to accomplish a competitive percentage of dmg application like T2 Fury's on a raven with just 1 TP. (which is not hurting the tank. You really need to do your homework on dmg application- rigs/skills/imps. You can cut down Explo-radius on a CNR to something around 250 baseline without the tp. Consider the TP, and your javs can't beat furys with 3 TP's either).

Sure, you may have more raw dmg, but a Golem with 3 TP'S can't beat a CNR on dmg application.

But, since you are not the genius on maths (well. I'm not either..), go out and just do an Guristas assault. You will see why the Golem is a crapship. :D


Uhh, we've already established that the Golem is a peace of crap when being jammed. HOWEVER, if you give the Golem the right missions (i.e. no ewar) then they kick ass over any other missile boat.
However, this is what they should be doing. Unfortunately, this is limited to just missions without ewar.
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#209 - 2012-03-10 18:13:08 UTC
Just turn Maurauders from the ultimate carebear ships into the ultimate pew pew ships. I don't care how this is done, but that is what I want.

[URL="https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=82348"]UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch[/URL]

Amaroq Dricaldari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#210 - 2012-03-10 20:54:13 UTC
Screenlag wrote:
Give marauders 500 calibration

That is really pushing it. But unless you give them a third rig slot, it is highly unlikely that they will be able to fit three Tech II Capacitor Control Circuits. But I guess it would be useful if you had a Large Burst Aerator II paired with a Large Collision Accelerator I.

This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#211 - 2012-03-10 22:14:28 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Hans Momaki wrote:


WoW, I've almost forgotten about this..

Lets break it down.

Jav's need 2 fully bonused tp's to accomplish a competitive percentage of dmg application like T2 Fury's on a raven with just 1 TP. (which is not hurting the tank. You really need to do your homework on dmg application- rigs/skills/imps. You can cut down Explo-radius on a CNR to something around 250 baseline without the tp. Consider the TP, and your javs can't beat furys with 3 TP's either).

Sure, you may have more raw dmg, but a Golem with 3 TP'S can't beat a CNR on dmg application.

But, since you are not the genius on maths (well. I'm not either..), go out and just do an Guristas assault. You will see why the Golem is a crapship. :D


Uhh, we've already established that the Golem is a peace of crap when being jammed. HOWEVER, if you give the Golem the right missions (i.e. no ewar) then they kick ass over any other missile boat.
However, this is what they should be doing. Unfortunately, this is limited to just missions without ewar.


It's not just missions with E-war.. generally missions with spawns beyond 80-100 KM.. and there are a fair few of them. Golem just sucks here. No doubt that a golem is awesome on close combat. But for a fair ammount of mission, the golem is inferior to the CNR. 60KM dmg range is just.. erm, way to low without the ability to fit a AB/MWD without hurting the fit too much. ( 2TP's just sucks)

m3talc0re X
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#212 - 2012-03-10 22:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: m3talc0re X
I have tried using EFT's damage calculation ****, but I just can't get it to work right for some reason. So without any biased opinions, maybe someone here can give me an answer to this. If you don't understand the difference between paper dps and applicable dps, please don't answer...

I want to know the applicable dps of a Golem using Trauma Fury Cruise vs a Golem using Trauma Javelin Torpedoes. Say vs a Guristas Battleship and a Cruiser.

Fits:
Quote:

[Golem, Cruise PvE]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II
Salvager II

Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


Quote:

[Golem, Seige PvE]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Siege Missile Launcher II, Trauma Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Trauma Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Trauma Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Trauma Javelin Torpedo
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II
Salvager II

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II


The part that bothers me most is the cruise lanchers' rof on the Golem, it's horrible...
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#213 - 2012-03-11 00:21:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
m3talc0re X wrote:
Fit comparison...


Yeah, screw that I edited this down.

The standard exp. radius of fury cruise missiles is 550m with a 58 m/sec exp velocity.
Javelin torps have a 450m exp radius with a 71m/sec exp velocity.
In the Golem, with the same general fit, you have higher dps with javelins than you do fury cruise.

Javelin's have better applied dps, not to mention higher dps, than fury cruise.

Another thing. When shooting at bs's, the difference between javelin and rage torps on target is a difference of 0-2 volleys, so really you don't even need to change ammo.

I Have good missile skills(close to 7 mil, or so), and without rigs, it still takes 2 target painters for me to have higher applied dps with fury cruise over precision against a bs.
However, if you're using precision against a bs, then it can take as much as 6 more volleys, and the same can be said if using fury against frigs or cruisers.

Target painters are also limited to having their most effective ranges under 90km. They have an optimal and falloff similar to turrets.
So, even though cruise missiles can hit the target at the golem's max targetting range, a torp golem can aggro them, wait for them to be within 60km, and probably be done with the room at the same time as the cruise Golem. Oh, and if you're salvaging with the golem, the targets are closer. If you're salvaging with a noctis, then you only gotta have the skill to lvl 3 with t2 tractor beams.
That's a lot better than having to slow boat to distant wrecks, or train a support ship skill to lvl 5 and still not be able to reach all your wrecks.
See, i'm not just thinking about range and dps, I'm also considering skills, fittings, and other misison factors, like salvaging.... Good times...

hans wrote:
It's not just missions with E-war.. generally missions with spawns beyond 80-100 KM.. and there are a fair few of them. Golem just sucks here. No doubt that a golem is awesome on close combat. But for a fair ammount of mission, the golem is inferior to the CNR. 60KM dmg range is just.. erm, way to low without the ability to fit a AB/MWD without hurting the fit too much. ( 2TP's just sucks)


Dude, that's another reason to have the target painters. You can aggro those distant groups without having to get near them, or waisting a volley. Besides, even if you didn't have tp's you could just launch a torp at them. Even though it wouldn't hit them, it would still aggro them.

AS far as range to hit targets, as long as you have t2 range rigs, as well as missile bombardment and missile projection to lvl 5, then you'll be able to hit any ship at orbit range. The only time range becomes an issue is when you get one of those missions where a dumb@ss npc gets stuck on a structure...
m3talc0re X
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#214 - 2012-03-11 01:10:02 UTC
I'm including skills and rigs and 5% implants for those two fits. This is what I see:

Trauma Javelin Torpedo
Kinetic Damage - 1588
Exp Velocity - 139
Exp Radius - 450

Trauma Fury Cruise
Kinetic Damage - 1506
Exp Velocity - 137
Exp Radius - 334

That Explosion Radius is the big divider there... Then there's the whole ROF issue with Torp vs Cruise
Torpedo Launcher II - 7.14s
Cruise Launcher II - 8.73s

So ignoring that 1.6 second rof difference, just looking at volley damage. Shouldn't the Fury be hitting harder or nearly the same as the jav's? It's been a little while since I've really used missiles (but I have used them quite a bit in the past...), so I may be a little hazy, but aren't I right here?
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#215 - 2012-03-11 01:35:44 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
I'm including skills and rigs and 5% implants for those two fits. This is what I see:

Trauma Javelin Torpedo
Kinetic Damage - 1588
Exp Velocity - 139
Exp Radius - 450

Trauma Fury Cruise
Kinetic Damage - 1506
Exp Velocity - 137
Exp Radius - 334

That Explosion Radius is the big divider there... Then there's the whole ROF issue with Torp vs Cruise
Torpedo Launcher II - 7.14s
Cruise Launcher II - 8.73s

So ignoring that 1.6 second rof difference, just looking at volley damage. Shouldn't the Fury be hitting harder or nearly the same as the jav's? It's been a little while since I've really used missiles (but I have used them quite a bit in the past...), so I may be a little hazy, but aren't I right here?


well, I have used battleclinic calculator (http://eve.battleclinic.com/calculators.php#missile)

Javs against a target with 300 sig and 200 speed and 0 resistance.
1057 dmg with trauma javelin.

Fury-cruise against the same target:
1350 dmg with trauma fury.

(Disclaimer: I don't know how accurate this is. It looks like the calc is pretty old, cause theres no damage reduction factor (javs have the higher drf btw)..

Oh, and a second Rigor II instead of the Flare II should give you more dmg. (Haven't done the math on that one, too tired atm)
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#216 - 2012-03-11 01:41:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
m3talc0re X wrote:
I'm including skills and rigs and 5% implants for those two fits. This is what I see:

Trauma Javelin Torpedo
Kinetic Damage - 1588
Exp Velocity - 139
Exp Radius - 450

Trauma Fury Cruise
Kinetic Damage - 1506
Exp Velocity - 137
Exp Radius - 334

That Explosion Radius is the big divider there... Then there's the whole ROF issue with Torp vs Cruise
Torpedo Launcher II - 7.14s
Cruise Launcher II - 8.73s

So ignoring that 1.6 second rof difference, just looking at volley damage. Shouldn't the Fury be hitting harder or nearly the same as the jav's? It's been a little while since I've really used missiles (but I have used them quite a bit in the past...), so I may be a little hazy, but aren't I right here?


After looking at all the stats. Javelins would take down bs's faster, in range, and they'd probably share the same dps against frigs. That being said, once you factor cruise range and everything, I'm still convinced they both run missions at close to the same pase. Unless the mission has all targets at close range, in which case, I bet the torps would probably win.

I do feel however, that javelin torps could use a smaller exp radius.

The question I have though is, when you look at most of the bs's in Eve, their sig radius is greater than the exp radius of javelin torps. With that in mind, why the hell do javelin torps even need tp's against missions bs's????
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#217 - 2012-03-11 09:39:22 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
m3talc0re X wrote:
I'm including skills and rigs and 5% implants for those two fits. This is what I see:

Trauma Javelin Torpedo
Kinetic Damage - 1588
Exp Velocity - 139
Exp Radius - 450

Trauma Fury Cruise
Kinetic Damage - 1506
Exp Velocity - 137
Exp Radius - 334

That Explosion Radius is the big divider there... Then there's the whole ROF issue with Torp vs Cruise
Torpedo Launcher II - 7.14s
Cruise Launcher II - 8.73s

So ignoring that 1.6 second rof difference, just looking at volley damage. Shouldn't the Fury be hitting harder or nearly the same as the jav's? It's been a little while since I've really used missiles (but I have used them quite a bit in the past...), so I may be a little hazy, but aren't I right here?


After looking at all the stats. Javelins would take down bs's faster, in range, and they'd probably share the same dps against frigs. That being said, once you factor cruise range and everything, I'm still convinced they both run missions at close to the same pase. Unless the mission has all targets at close range, in which case, I bet the torps would probably win.

I do feel however, that javelin torps could use a smaller exp radius.

The question I have though is, when you look at most of the bs's in Eve, their sig radius is greater than the exp radius of javelin torps. With that in mind, why the hell do javelin torps even need tp's against missions bs's????


Yup, I do think that both, the CNR and the Golem are comparable. Golem completely owns short range missions while the CNR is stronger in long-range and jamming-missions, but for the highest specialized PvE-ship, this is still just lama.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#218 - 2012-03-11 18:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Hans Momaki wrote:


Yup, I do think that both, the CNR and the Golem are comparable. Golem completely owns short range missions while the CNR is stronger in long-range and jamming-missions, but for the highest specialized PvE-ship, this is still just lama.


Well, I wouldn't say they're comparable. Personally , I think the cnr has a much weaker tank, thus it goes down quicker.

On the other hand, jamming isn't as much of a problem and it can hit targets at max range. Not to mention precision cruise are more effective against frigs and cruisers.


However, torps are quite effective against approaching frigs and cruisers. As long as you hit them with torps before they're orbitting, then you're set, but I also had a wing of medium and light t2 drones in my Golem. I also used mission specific drones to maximize their effectiveness.

The only place they don't really match up is in their ewar. Marauders just suck all around against ewar. They already take pretty much full effective damage, so being target painted just means they're not gonna miss even out of optimal. Dampening sucks, jamming kills, and neuting takes everything away.

So again, I still feel if you gave Marauders npc ewar immunity, then I'm willing to bet the only complaint that would be left for Marauder pilots is the range of tractors.
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#219 - 2012-03-11 21:58:08 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Hans Momaki wrote:


Yup, I do think that both, the CNR and the Golem are comparable. Golem completely owns short range missions while the CNR is stronger in long-range and jamming-missions, but for the highest specialized PvE-ship, this is still just lama.


Well, I wouldn't say they're comparable. Personally , I think the cnr has a much weaker tank, thus it goes down quicker.

On the other hand, jamming isn't as much of a problem and it can hit targets at max range. Not to mention precision cruise are more effective against frigs and cruisers.


However, torps are quite effective against approaching frigs and cruisers. As long as you hit them with torps before they're orbitting, then you're set, but I also had a wing of medium and light t2 drones in my Golem. I also used mission specific drones to maximize their effectiveness.

The only place they don't really match up is in their ewar. Marauders just suck all around against ewar. They already take pretty much full effective damage, so being target painted just means they're not gonna miss even out of optimal. Dampening sucks, jamming kills, and neuting takes everything away.

So again, I still feel if you gave Marauders npc ewar immunity, then I'm willing to bet the only complaint that would be left for Marauder pilots is the range of tractors.


Well, I don't care about E-war, but I do care about not beeing able to shoot targets because of range. Nothing sucks more then having targets up there out of range. There are a fair ammount of missions with targets beyond 60 km. I can't see why I should buy a ship which sucks at those missions. Marauders should be the top ships for missions. They are designed for doing them, but still, the golem does really suck at some missions. This makes no sense at all, and I will stick to my CNR unless I trained up to the vargur (which still takes ~2 months).

My CNR kills every mission with just T1 missiles. Sure, the 300 Million I've spend for the tank (C-type XL which is arround 500 mil now?) was notable, but with it, I have no problems in any mission whatsoever. I never need to switch ships. Why shall I use the golem? For 10% better performance in some missions, and more worse performance in some other missions? Seriously, thats a bad deal. I wouldn't call that a "top PvE ship".

I guess it depends on personal flavor, but for me, the golem is not worth it. It's no allround mission ship. That's why I consider it "crap".

To answer this question:
Quote:
The question I have though is, when you look at most of the bs's in Eve, their sig radius is greater than the exp radius of javelin torps. With that in mind, why the hell do javelin torps even need tp's against missions bs's????


It's the explosion velocity. You can compensate with sig-radius to a certain degree (that's why you can hit BS for full dmg), but most small targets are just waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to fast for missiles. With the hilariously low explosion velocity on torps/CM's, velocity of the target is the major factor on dmg application. The absence of a dmg module for explosion-velocity is another factor. (IMHO, it's completely unfair and a major factor for all the Torp-jokes)

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#220 - 2012-03-11 23:20:14 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:

It's the explosion velocity. You can compensate with sig-radius to a certain degree (that's why you can hit BS for full dmg), but most small targets are just waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to fast for missiles. With the hilariously low explosion velocity on torps/CM's, velocity of the target is the major factor on dmg application. The absence of a dmg module for explosion-velocity is another factor. (IMHO, it's completely unfair and a major factor for all the Torp-jokes)



The question you answered is actually referring to npc bs's. I'm well aware that movement comes into play, and that smaller ships are harder to hit.

However, I referring directly to npc bs's. If you check the info of each mission bs you see, most of the time you'll notice that their sig radius is equal to or greater than the exp radius of javelin torps. In some cases even rage torps. However, when you're in the mission you need to use 2 target painters to have full effective dps against npc bs's. Sure, they're moving, but their movement speed is quite low. I'm sure javelin torps wouldn't need more than one target painter on a bs to compensate for their movement. Like I said though, you need 2, and possibly even 3.

So what i'm asking is why do npc bs's seem to have a smaller sig than their player counterparts???
It's kinda the same thing as asking how the hell can they shoot torps 100km??? I mean seriously. NPC ships do a lot of crap that a player couldn't pull off with a perfect fit designed for just that, and with all skills lvl 5.