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Crime & Punishment

 
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Guidelines and advice for setting ransoms

First post
Author
Tigers
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2011-09-22 11:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Barbie D0ll wrote:
Quote:
*snip*
broken forums keep eating my posts

here is the primary ransom procedure
ransom ship
receive ransom
blow them up anyways


qft
Barakkus
#22 - 2011-09-22 20:10:38 UTC
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
Plenty of pirates DO honour ransoms - but you can count the ones who do on the fingers of one hand. If you don't know your lowsec corps, it is somewhat risky, but many will state their intentions in their corp bio.


Not really, and they only put **** in their bios to try and convince people to pay them, then shoot them anyways. Never had a ransom honored, probably won't ever... like shooting until I'm dead anyways, so I don't bother anymore :P

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc

Cattegirn
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2011-09-22 22:11:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cattegirn
As regards those who don't honoUr ransoms, all it means is that you need to discount your ransom payments, as opposed to never pay them. If it's a rare thing that ransoms are honoured, that means pirates need to be asking for much less ISK than they otherwise would.

There is no value in a ransom you don't get paid.
Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#24 - 2011-09-23 00:05:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Traffic Warden wrote:
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
BuzzyBeagle wrote:
what is this "honoring ransom" thing you speak of???

It's called honoUring.Roll


Not if you're American.

Just saying.

No. I'm American, and in any context of E-Honour, it's always with a U. (no, u)

Ex: Project Nemesis are all exemplary and honourable Internet Spaceship Pilots.



My personal guidelines for ransoms are the same as the "QFT" aforementioned: Ransom ship, receive ransom, blow up ship (and pod usually, they aren't ready to die when they've paid the ransom).

This is largely a product of our environment, or lack of one: hisec and wspace. Anywhere in hisec and wspace. And sometimes nullsec, or even lowsec. If I kill someone, I am quite unlikely to ever encounter them again in my travels.

If you are a local killer, for instance if you constantly terrorize the same systems for months on end (especially lowsec, but to some extend nullsec and even hisec as well), you actually have an opportunity to develop a rapport with the people you are ransoming. This is the situation in which ransoms are actually meant to be applied: there is an actual form of history you can reference.

There's plenty of groups that are known to honour/not honour ransoms in their specific home pockets of lowsec, but very few that actually have a reputation you could get someone to remember. Goonswarm comes to mind, those gloriously swarming bastards -- but they are among the largest and longest-lived organizations in all of EVE, built around the founding principle of lolkilleverything.

TL;DR it only makes sense to honour ransoms if you are a local kind of person or group and actually have a chance to develop a reputation at all.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#25 - 2011-09-23 00:56:19 UTC
The whole ransom "system" is broke richard.


The game needs a "parley" system - a way to signal an attacker that you request parley or surrender or something like that. I've seen enough camps to wonder how in the heck anyone even manages to communicate in those mad houses.

There is also a lot of rage from the more serious pirates regarding the killmail addictions and the kill anything that moves smacktalking crowd. The later being the reason for lowsec having a low population, fewer outsiders taking risks, and players turtled up in highsec. Many arguments abound for and against such ideas.

There should be two kinds of pirate. Those that honor ransoms, and those that don't - and they should be flagged as such, if requested. An ISK transfer should come with an option to flag it as "ransom" with a timer - if you lose a ship to the target of the ISK transfer (not just the individual, cause I know how a gamesman thinks) the status of the honourless (or is that honor?) should be such that even other pirates who do honor (?) ransoms should not suffer a security status penalty for killing them outright (even perhaps a bonus?).

Until then, there will not be any difference between someone who honors a ransom and someone who does not, and no reason to treat them differently.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#26 - 2011-09-23 07:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
The game needs a "parley" system - a way to signal an attacker that you request parley or surrender or something like that.

There already is one.

Unlock everyone and scream for mercy in local.

dealwithit.gif





Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
the status of the honourless (or is that honor?) should be such that even other pirates who do honor (?) ransoms should not suffer a security status penalty for killing them outright (even perhaps a bonus?).

OH-EXPLOITABLE

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Usurpine
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2011-09-23 08:43:46 UTC
My advice if you got a Pirate ransom request:

A good rule for you if you are asked for a ransom is to say nothing, not pay 1 isk to the pirate and be prepared to loose your ship and try to get away with your pod.
If corp mates are around of course talk with him a lot, try to get your team mates into system, but still dont pay nothing.
If he is still able to catch your pod and ransom you again, just say nothing and be prepared to wake up in your wakeup Station and immediately upgrade your clone.

Just ignore them, get a new ship, get new implants (better do not buy the most expensive ones) and continue the game and learn how to not get caught the next time.

If you undock in your new setup, just be prepared to loose it all again, do not fly what you cannot afford to loose.

If everybody is doing it that way, it will probably reduce the ransoms, it probably will also reduce the fun to kill people somehow.

Of course there are some pirates who honor ransom, its your decision to pay. But i already prepared myself to loose everything when i undocked the last time so i really dont care. I never pay ransoms, but on the other side until now i was never in bad situations to get caught by pirates and i am playing eve now for many years.

I personally don´t like people who kill others. When i am in need to kill hostiles i just want them to go away, including pod, so i am personally not interested in ransoms at all because i am trying to make a living in eve with other incomes then griefing people.

I tell you it really sucks if you loose your ship, loose your pod and implants and loose isk you paid to pirates who give a sh|t about honour.
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#28 - 2011-09-23 11:27:57 UTC
Ransoming is hard and typically only succeeds when the target doesn't care about the isk or sees the amount they'd spend as a worthwhile risk because, even if they get killed anyway, their actual loss is going to hurt much more. With all the isk-printing alts on both sides, few people will offer/honor a ransom nowadays but there's still a few who'll pay/honor them if it's reasonable.

Overall, a successful ransom is not about estimating the value of a ship so much as it is to convince the person that paying you will be a better deal than having to replace what they've lost.
Xiu Ju
Point Blank Carebears
#29 - 2011-09-23 14:35:21 UTC
As an Ex-prat who use used ransoms quite frequently a few years ago I'd say base your ransom on the value of the hull and realize that exorbitant prices (whether honored or not) only serve to anger those you ransom. BC hull, 15-20 mill or so, HAC 50 mill, CS 80 mill. Like mentioned take into account char age and corp. Industrial players tend to pay up more than another PvP'er

Pods are a different story. Depends on what ship they were flying, if you could notice any obvious implant effects and age of character.

I always honored my ransoms however I will never pay a ransom because I know there are many people who don't honour them. Your better to lose your ship like a man than risk paying someone who will probably pop you just for kicks and more loot/isk. There are certainly times I would have risked paying 50-150 mill for my pod but often the times when you would like to be ransomed your popped :/

If your ransomed and the ransom is under 10% of your total potential isk loss I'd say go for it (taking the prats don't know you have a lot more to lose)
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#30 - 2011-09-24 04:38:08 UTC
I'd just ask what I think I can lure out of the pilot. It is way too many aspects to take into consideration, plus gut feeling.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#31 - 2011-09-24 06:02:28 UTC
Usurpine wrote:
...

...

I personally don´t like people who kill others....

I tell you it really sucks if you loose your ship, loose your pod and implants and loose isk you paid to pirates who give a sh|t about honour.

You sound an awful lot like someone who does a lot of PVE and resents the PVP aspect of the game.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#32 - 2011-09-24 07:20:06 UTC  |  Edited by: James Arget
Let's see.. generally only 20-50m for a capsule. They may be worth more than that, but the lack of trust yadda yadda no idea what implants yadda yadda, generally that's a secondary concern.

Generally my guys try to get the entire ship. When we jump a siterunner, if they're flying a T3 or similiar, we'll point them, neut them, and tell them that if they eject then their capsule lives. Given that their ship is pretty much a write-off when you're pointed in w-space by a group that's pvp fit, they can either decide to take the offer, or try to deny us as much as possible. Usually we blow them up, but a good few times we've walked off with a new Hulk or some such.

Edit: Of course, we honor our ransoms. Can't expect someone to cough up if they don't know you're going to keep your word.

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org

Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#33 - 2011-09-24 07:46:39 UTC
Our standard procedure is to ransom really big, expensive stuff. Orcas, tengus, CNRs, sometimes hulks even. Expensive ships for usually around 300 million; they generally pay up, and then they generally instapop.

Give them 15 seconds, wait for them to pay, then blow them up for being late in paying; that works too.

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Sergio Ling
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-09-24 11:24:51 UTC
I was brought up to honour ransoms, (which isn't even what this thread is primarily about...but), and honouring them makes targets talk to others about how 'Megadickwads' are honourable shitfuckers - word of mouth is the only way you'll get paid. Generally I've priced ransom at shiptype, area of operation (have you caught an unfortunate/ill-informed traveller?) and your own gang composition, if any (everyone wants a slice)
Disastro
Wrecking Shots
#35 - 2011-09-24 16:06:35 UTC
Cattegirn wrote:
I'd like to hear the thoughts from experienced pirates (be that low or null sec) on how to evaluate what to ask for in ransom from a trapped player.

I've been ransomed myself a few times and always found the prices asked to be excessive. I believe that in those cases, the pirate is simply betting on eventually catching someone with some expensive implants.

But I wonder whether enough people travel in risky space with expensive implants to make this the right way to price ransoms. Anyone with a fair sample size might be able to fill me in there. I'm also concerned that the players who have expensive implants in null are going to be so rich they'll just replace the implants sooner than trust a ransom to be honored.

How essential is having a ship scanner and cargo scanner when setting up traps?

Just some stuff I'm curious about, thanks.


- Generally speaking.... when my corp pirates, and we go down to low sec every so often and spend a week or two going -10 (and recently spent a month or so in Oulley ganking people and demanding monocles), we always honor ransoms. We use the ransom money to SRP any ships we lose on the trip. Not honoring them would be foolish because we often got repeat customers and they would hardly choose to pay a second time if they got podded the first....

- As for what we ask for... that is a harder question. Realistically I assume you mean ransoming pods. We never ransom ships. We are there for the kill mails not for the money. We are more than happy enough just to rack up pod kill mails when people say no to a ransom offer. That happens about 95% of the time. About 4% of the time people discuss it and then say no. About 1% of the time someone agrees and pays. Asking for more money than the persons implants are going to cost them will result in a no (or more likely a F U). We generally look at the players age and standings which you can see by clicking on the player. If he has high mission running standings then you can assume he is a bear and will have good implants. A 1 month old bear isnt going to have +5 implants in. A 3 year old bear likely will have +4 or +5s. Asking for the same price as a full set will also likely get you a no. Generally we ask for bout half of what we expect a full set of +4s or +5s depending on the age of the character. If player is far younger then we may assume +2 or +3s and adjust the ransom for that.

- Realistically if you are hoping to make fantastic amounts of money from ransoming pods you will be disappointed. Most people arent going to pay more than a couple hundred million to save thier implants. Unless you get very lucky and catch someone with Slaves or Crystals or something in their head they would probably not consider paying much more than that. Most players will not have implants worth even that much.
Andrea Griffin
#36 - 2011-09-26 19:43:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Griffin
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
Also I've converted carebears to low sec pvpr's just by showing we arn't huge a-holes. yeah we will blow up your ship. But we won't smack talk you first and make fun of you. We will be polite as long as you are. We will joke and have fun, and if you are a uber noob then we might even give you some isk + tips and send you on your way.
People whine and complain that lowsec is empty, then the next time they catch some nubbin carebear they ransom him, blow up his ship anyway, spam LULNUB in local, and zap his pod. Do you really think that guy is ever going to come back to play? Hell no.

Like Zoe, I have on multiple occasions helped transform a hapless, clueless bear into an eager, blood thirsty wolf simply by not being a jerk. Many others have at least been given a few survival tips. Sure, that makes catching them harder the next time I see them in local, but at least there IS a next time.

If you catch someone who is really new you're not going to get any real money anyway, and nobody is going to be impressed that your faction fit T3 whatever was able to pew pew a rifter with a rail gun, 2 artillery, a small shield booster, and some reinforced bulkheads. So, you might as well engage in some light role play. Yarrrr! at them, get them involved in a conversation about how they have violated your sovereign territory and how upset you are that they have interrupted your rum drinking and parrot petting, and then demand 1 isk. It's a lot of fun.

More in line with the OP's topic, as others have said, a touch below the base price of the hull is a good general rule. I find that too many people ransom for far too much isk and that many people don't want to pay that much with the risk of losing the ship anyway. So, make them an offer they really can't refuse.

Pods are a little weird because you never really know if that nubbin has sold PLEX and stuffed his head with +5s, or if that 6 year old vet has an empty clone he expected to lose anyway. I usually never go higher than 40-50m on a pod; if someone refuses my initial ask, I'll drop it, and if they still say it's too much, I'll see if they would make ME a reasonable offer.

Unless they start to smack or whine. Then the deal is off and it's time for pew pew.
Usurpine
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2011-09-27 07:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Usurpine
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Our standard procedure is to ransom really big, expensive stuff. Orcas, tengus, CNRs, sometimes hulks even. Expensive ships for usually around 300 million; they generally pay up, and then they generally instapop.

Give them 15 seconds, wait for them to pay, then blow them up for being late in paying; that works too.

^This.
Forget about ransoms. Its not worth even thinking about it. I like your post, because with this post you confirm my theory. Thank You that you make it clear.
And to answer your post, no, i am not doing PVE, i am playing eve different, making profit with sharing profit and helping noobs ingame.
I probably make more isk every month then you are able to kill. And its ok, because someone needs to buy new ships. My business is only profitable because you blow up ships.
Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#38 - 2011-09-27 08:59:27 UTC
Usurpine wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Our standard procedure is to ransom really big, expensive stuff. Orcas, tengus, CNRs, sometimes hulks even. Expensive ships for usually around 300 million; they generally pay up, and then they generally instapop.

Give them 15 seconds, wait for them to pay, then blow them up for being late in paying; that works too.

^This.
Forget about ransoms. Its not worth even thinking about it. I like your post, because with this post you confirm my theory. Thank You that you make it clear.
And to answer your post, no, i am not doing PVE, i am playing eve different, making profit with sharing profit and helping noobs ingame.
I probably make more isk every month then you are able to kill. And its ok, because someone needs to buy new ships. My business is only profitable because you blow up ships.

In a typical month I generally destroy about 15 billion isk. If you make more than that, then well done, that's quite the racket you've got going. I doubt one in a thousand EVE players makes that much.

I'm glad you're fine with people blowing up ships. I wish you were also fine with the people who do it, because honestly more of them are friendly, well-adjusted people than you will find among EVE's carebears (nearly all of them, in fact). I know this from multiple years of experience on both ends.

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Usurpine
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2011-09-27 13:43:01 UTC
Well, i am not. Quite impressing number, 15 bn /month. ccp must love you.
Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#40 - 2011-09-27 22:21:50 UTC
I strive to do my best.

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