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Marauders: Underwhelming. Fix Ideas

Author
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#161 - 2012-03-05 17:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Joe Risalo wrote:
...


Well it isnt my problem you skilled for a bad ship. And it wasn't in a fine print, but it was written all over it: slow, PvE only half-Noctis battleship.

Only Marauder fix possible is the one to make them viable PvP ships too. Otherwise it dont really matter. Another option, removing them and giving you back SP to invest in ships that don't suck should be considered as well.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#162 - 2012-03-05 18:12:17 UTC
By the way, for those of you saying that a Bhaalgorn can't compete with a Paladin, this is how you do it:


[Bhaalgorn, Bhaalgorn: PvE Pulse]
Corpus X-Type Large Armor Repairer
Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

True Sansha Stasis Webifier
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
100MN Afterburner II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Corpus X-Type Heavy Nosferatu
Corpus X-Type Heavy Nosferatu
Corpus X-Type Heavy Nosferatu

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hobgoblin II x1
Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2
killorbekilled TBE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2012-03-05 19:04:23 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
By the way, for those of you saying that a Bhaalgorn can't compete with a Paladin, this is how you do it:


[Bhaalgorn, Bhaalgorn: PvE Pulse]
Corpus X-Type Large Armor Repairer
Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

True Sansha Stasis Webifier
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
100MN Afterburner II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Corpus X-Type Heavy Nosferatu
Corpus X-Type Heavy Nosferatu
Corpus X-Type Heavy Nosferatu

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hobgoblin II x1
Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2


when dudes are comparing there mission boat fits in a 'improve marauders' thread that's when all hope is lost

:)

m3talc0re X
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#164 - 2012-03-05 21:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: m3talc0re X
Yeah, we're not making fit comparisons here. Not to mention you're comparing a pirate faction bs against a marauder... Nobody said it couldn't compete. Simply that a Paladin can out dps it.

Anyway, you've got a point on that one Spugg. The fault is really them not sticking to something until it's finished though. Just half-assing it... But we've got to at least set some guidelines here. Like, first and foremost, marauders are PvE ships. So no bonuses for PvP related roles. Keep tractor bonuses and boost them, add salvage bonuses. No further nerfing. And drawbacks and penalties need removed.

Also, in the Hybrid Balancing's defense: I believe CCP Tallest is the one that's primarily working on this project and I remember reading something about him having new twins or something other, probably not focused on EVE much atm. Hopefully he'll get back on it soon.

These are the current changes I've suggested and revised including some other suggestions:

Kronos
* Increase Sensor Strength to 27 or 28 points.
* Increase Scan Resolution to 90-95 mm at the least.
* Increase Armor Explosive resistance to 30%
* Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 150m3
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level changed to Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus

Paladin
* Increase Sensor Strength to 25 points.
* Increase Scan Resolution to 95-100 mm at the least.
* Increase Power Grid by 1,000. Not sure what the base would be, but after skills and all, the thing needs 1k more pg.
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level changed to Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus
* Increase Capacitor Amount by 700 and decrease cap recharge time by at least 200 or 300 seconds.

Vargur
* Increase Sensor Strength to 20 or 21 points.
* Increase Scan Resolution to 95-100 mm at the least.
* Increase Power Grid by 2,500. Again, not sure of the base.
* Add Target Painter effectiveness bonus per Marauder level.

Golem
* Increase Sensor Strength to 25 or 26 points.
* Increase Scan Resolution to 95-100 mm at the least.
Needs a ROF bonus for cruise launchers only, if possible.

All Marauders
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams changed to 150% bonus.
Role Bonus: 25% bonus to Salvager cycle time needs added.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to [weapon] damage increased to 125%.

Edit: Added suggested role bonus for damage increase.

So take all of that into account and ewar in missions will be no more of a hassle than it would on any other ship. Which is how it should be honestly. Also, lets break it down some more:
If a Marauder gets jammed, with the above buffs, it'll be on the same level as other ships. If it gets painted, lol at them and who gives a ****. It's like painting a structure... If it gets webbed or scrammed, Marauders have bonuses to help them deal with things close to them. Golem's TP, Paladin/Kronos's webs, Vargur, well.. I guess it's tracking XD. Yeah, Vargur needs a TP or Web bonus, think I'm gonna add that to the list. But the Marauders are no more or less susceptible here than any other BS really. If neuted/drained, Marauders can do it right back. They've got 3 spare highs. PvP wise of course. PvE wise, well, the Kronos has a faster cap recharge than the Mega, same cap amount. Paladin however does need more cap, gonna add this to the list also. I don't have much experience with the Vargur, I only use mine in Angel missions, so any suggestions here on what it lacks is welcome. Golem I haven't used at all. Though I've used the Raven/CNR/Tengu extensively in PvE.

On this note though. Can anyone really think of ANY reason why a Marauder should have a signature radius 100m larger than other battleships? Should I add lowering that to the above list?
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#165 - 2012-03-06 13:18:25 UTC
well, that changes would make up for a huge ammount of damage. The Problems I would still have are:

Not enough range to fight all targets ( it is ok for a trade-off, but make sure ppl have the slot for prop mods, it's a pita to slowboat into range with ~120 m/s)
Resists are lame, T2 resists should be there.
m3talc0re X
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#166 - 2012-03-06 14:40:16 UTC
Not enough range? Only one I see that really has a range problem is the Golem and with skills, it's not too bad. I'd really like to see the Golem with better dps for cruise missiles rather than torps, though. Mainly for that range problem...

T2 resists are, I dunno... They buffed a couple resists on ships by a little bit, then left others alone. They should at least get a 10% resist buff across the board. Then looked at individually closer to see what more needs buffed. Like the Kronos's huge explosive hole. They didn't even bother to buff from Mega to Kronos.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#167 - 2012-03-06 17:32:22 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
Not enough range? Only one I see that really has a range problem is the Golem and with skills, it's not too bad. I'd really like to see the Golem with better dps for cruise missiles rather than torps, though. Mainly for that range problem...

T2 resists are, I dunno... They buffed a couple resists on ships by a little bit, then left others alone. They should at least get a 10% resist buff across the board. Then looked at individually closer to see what more needs buffed. Like the Kronos's huge explosive hole. They didn't even bother to buff from Mega to Kronos.



Well, there's another problem with the golem using cruise missiles. Cruise missiles require just as many target painters as torps to be effective, yet, target painters have an optimal and fall off. So, outside of torp range the target painters are much less effective, thus not really helping with cruise missile damage.

The golem gets a 7.5% bonus to the effectiveness of target painters, but I would like to see it swap that bonus for a bonus that removes all range limitations on target painters. That means whether the target is at zero or 200km, the target painters will help out the way they're supposed to.

As far as damage with cruise missiles, it could use a bit of a boost so that it's at least able to get equal damage of javelin torps when firing fury cruise missiles. Which takes it from about 610 dps with all skills 5 and t2 ballistics in all the lows, to about 750 dps or so with fury all skills 5 and lows with t2 ballistics
Plyn
Uncharted.
#168 - 2012-03-06 18:35:32 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:

...
C> People find the sensor strength / scan resolution issue of Marauders a real problem.

D> PvE isn't what it used to be and Marauders are out dated and unsuitable for "modern" PvE


I certainly hope people find the sensor and scan resolution a problem! These are crappy by design, as they prevent marauders from being PvP beasts. Imagine if you buffed this, you could see a marauder with a half rack of guns and almost half rack of nos/neuts absolutely murder people, especially if you buff the nos range like OP suggests.

If I had to make any suggestion regarding marauders I'd say their price to manufacture could be lowered slightly to make them more attractive. Sure, give them a little more salvage bonus love so they can at least try to keep up with the noctis... But you should be sticking an ECCM or cap booster on anyways depending on what you are missioning/ratting.

Once again, I am repeating because it is a very important point: Buffing marauder scan strength and resolution, or giving them ewar immunity (even if EAF can break it, because I'm sure those are going to tank your drones for so long) will make these into PvP mega-beasts. They already get similar (slightly lower) DPS to pirate faction BS with a slightly better tank. If you remove their single drawback you will see fleets of these rolling around destroying everything in sight.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#169 - 2012-03-06 19:08:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Plyn wrote:

I certainly hope people find the sensor and scan resolution a problem! These are crappy by design, as they prevent marauders from being PvP beasts. Imagine if you buffed this, you could see a marauder with a half rack of guns and almost half rack of nos/neuts absolutely murder people, especially if you buff the nos range like OP suggests.

If I had to make any suggestion regarding marauders I'd say their price to manufacture could be lowered slightly to make them more attractive. Sure, give them a little more salvage bonus love so they can at least try to keep up with the noctis... But you should be sticking an ECCM or cap booster on anyways depending on what you are missioning/ratting.

Once again, I am repeating because it is a very important point: Buffing marauder scan strength and resolution, or giving them ewar immunity (even if EAF can break it, because I'm sure those are going to tank your drones for so long) will make these into PvP mega-beasts. They already get similar (slightly lower) DPS to pirate faction BS with a slightly better tank. If you remove their single drawback you will see fleets of these rolling around destroying everything in sight.


Until they get nerfed into the ground and become worse than they are now.

The only way Marauders can stay as is, is to limit them to pve only. If you go around trying to adapt them for pvp, then they're gonna get pretty weak.. CCP would probably have to take away their tanking bonus, thus they would be a giant ship with a weak tank.

I still feel the only way to make them the pve monsters they're meant to be without effecting their pvp capability, thus getting them nerfed, is to make them immune to npc ewar.

For those who like the game to be based on lore, it still fits because I could see where it would be possible to negate ewar from npcs, but not from players, because players are tied into their ships, thus making their computers much more advanced and with faster responses. NPCs are NOT pod pilots, so they don't have all that.
Zombo Brian
Doomheim
#170 - 2012-03-06 22:40:07 UTC
I agree, marauders should be the best in missioning ultimately, at the time this is the machariel

Marauders need more damage, every faction battleship (except rattlesnake) has a damage bonus that makes it do more damage than any marauder

Marauders are far too hard to skillfor their use, making them even more unwanted

The only real advantage from a marauder against faction battleships is that they probably have the superior tank, yay...

seriously, just like interceptors are slower than normal faction frigs, marauders should be better than faction battleships for missions in order to give people something for their time training it
m3talc0re X
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#171 - 2012-03-07 02:39:32 UTC
Some of you guys are seriously smokin' something, I swear -_-

Marauders get better tank than Faction: How you figure? My Vindi has **** ton more tank than my Kronos AND out dps's it.

Quote:
I certainly hope people find the sensor and scan resolution a problem! These are crappy by design, as they prevent marauders from being PvP beasts. Imagine if you buffed this, you could see a marauder with a half rack of guns and almost half rack of nos/neuts absolutely murder people, especially if you buff the nos range like OP suggests.

Yes, you certainly see a lot of Bhaalgorn fleets roaming about doing this...

I have a headache and I think it best I reply later when it's gone -_-
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#172 - 2012-03-07 07:01:16 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
Some of you guys are seriously smokin' something, I swear -_-

Marauders get better tank than Faction: How you figure? My Vindi has **** ton more tank than my Kronos AND out dps's it.

Quote:
I certainly hope people find the sensor and scan resolution a problem! These are crappy by design, as they prevent marauders from being PvP beasts. Imagine if you buffed this, you could see a marauder with a half rack of guns and almost half rack of nos/neuts absolutely murder people, especially if you buff the nos range like OP suggests.

Yes, you certainly see a lot of Bhaalgorn fleets roaming about doing this...

I have a headache and I think it best I reply later when it's gone -_-


I liked your comment for a few reasons.

1) Marauders have awesome dps. I don't know why everyone keeps thinking faction bs's are better. Pirate faction, slightly give and take, but standard faction bs's don't compete with Marauders in dps.

2) Marauders also have awesome tank. However, even though their tank is quite good, their size kinda negates the tank bonus. This expecially shows on the Golem, which still gets a sig penalty when using rage torps. The thing has almost a 700m sig when fitting rage. I feel the penalties for t2 missiles should be removed, atleast for cruise and torp.

3) The reason why their aren't massive fleets of pirate battleships isn't because of their dps or their size, it's because of their price. Now, with Marauders, you're paying the same price for a much less pvp viable ship, thus even less worth the risk.

I personally disagree with everyone saying that Marauders need a dps buff, or more drone bw, or any of that crap.
The things I feel they need.

1) Remove t2 ammo penalties for missiles, and whatever other t2 ammo still has a penalty, at least for bs class ammo.

2) Even if Marauders are made more pvp viable, their cost will negate much pvp use, and they'll just end up getting nerfed. So i'm still sticking with my idea of e-war immunity toward npcs.

3) E-war immunity towards npcs means they'll become more viable in lvl 4's, thus worth training for by high sec players. They'll become more viable in plexing, incursion running, lvl 5's, and sleepers, which are all pretty much things they can't do now. This will also make marauders even across the board in their effectiveness in all faction missions, where as normally, none of them can do Caldari, and it's best not to do Amarr either.

4) Possibly give their support bonuses a look at. Like what I suggested about the golem's target painter bonus being buffed slightly so that tp's will have a much more effective minimal and max range. Perhaps give a support bonus to the marauders that currently don't have one.

I don't think the Marauders have issues with dps, range, or tank.
Most of their issues come from other factors such as e-war, ammo penalties, and support ability limitations. Address these issues and Marauders will be better suited for pve without making them pvp power houses that need a swift hit with the nerf bat.
Amaroq Dricaldari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#173 - 2012-03-07 07:37:41 UTC
Which would take longer to train if you were starting as a Gallente or Minmatar pilot?

Amarr Battleship V
Amarr and Caldari Battleship IV

Because I was thinking, what if we just made one Marauder for Amarr and Caldari, and one for Gallente and Minmatar?

This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Plyn
Uncharted.
#174 - 2012-03-07 15:36:36 UTC
I think a lot of people wanting the marauder buffed because pirate faction BS's are better fail to realize that this is the case for everything. T2 are supposed to be specialized, but in sheer awesomeness the pirate faction ships are always supposed to be better.

The problem is, the "specialization" that was given to marauders is simply the ability to do BS damage while still being able to fit salvage gear. Yes, the machariel is a better ship, you have a specialized salvage ship.

What takes longer to train for, a deimos or a cynabal? These ships are supposed to fill similar roles, but the cynabal is both faster to train and loads better. That's how pirate faction works.

How about an enyo and a daredevil? Wolf and a dramiel? An interceptor and a dramiel?

What do you think it takes longer to train for, a gila or an eagle? The eagle! Yet the gila curb stomps it with its awesomeness.

The only difference between these comparisons and the one between pirate faction BS and marauders is that marauders should not be as costly as they are. Most of the time the cost of the pirate faction ship is about 2x that of the relevant T2 ship. In the case of marauders vs pirate faction the difference is maybe 1.2x. (~800-900 for marauder hull vs ~1bil for pirate faction hull)

Out of the "It's so costly!" and the "It takes so long to train!" arguments, the costly argument is the only one that has any traction.

The noctis ruined marauder spec, and let's face it, it was probably still easier to just use a dessy to salvage with before the noctis anyways. The marauder needs a NEW spec, that isn't salvage. So, now the question is, what kind of specialization can you give them that keeps them inferior to pirate faction BS, but gives them a real reason that someone should use them?
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#175 - 2012-03-07 18:02:13 UTC
Plyn wrote:
So, now the question is, what kind of specialization can you give them that keeps them inferior to pirate faction BS, but gives them a real reason that someone should use them?


And that is the point of this thread. Any suggestions?
m3talc0re X
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#176 - 2012-03-07 18:21:04 UTC
No. I'll f***ing say it again. Do not remove tractor bonus and ADD a salvage bonus. Buffing it's ability to salvage on the go will make it compete with the DPS/Noctis combo.

Quote:
Out of the "It's so costly!" and the "It takes so long to train!" arguments, the costly argument is the only one that has any traction.


Your whole post has no traction. The problem with marauders is not their they're specialized, it's the fact that they can't do what they're specialized for worth a damn. You're all wanting a completely different f'ing ship! Most of your "ideas" would basically be varied versions of the Bhaalgorn...

Mauraders need buffs to be brought in line and made better at what they do.
Marauders don't need to be completely remade into entirely different ships that are filling (or trying to fill) completely different roles.
Plyn
Uncharted.
#177 - 2012-03-07 18:26:07 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
No. I'll f***ing say it again. Do not remove tractor bonus and ADD a salvage bonus. Buffing it's ability to salvage on the go will make it compete with the DPS/Noctis combo.

Quote:
Out of the "It's so costly!" and the "It takes so long to train!" arguments, the costly argument is the only one that has any traction.


Your whole post has no traction. The problem with marauders is not their they're specialized, it's the fact that they can't do what they're specialized for worth a damn. You're all wanting a completely different f'ing ship! Most of your "ideas" would basically be varied versions of the Bhaalgorn...

Mauraders need buffs to be brought in line and made better at what they do.
Marauders don't need to be completely remade into entirely different ships that are filling (or trying to fill) completely different roles.

You mad bro?

If you read the other posts you'd see that I support the adding of a salvage bonus.

The post that you are quoting was me explaining why people need to stop comparing the marauder to the pirate faction BSs and asking why the pirate's can kill stuff faster... Because the marauder has its niche specialization. Wow, we both seem to be using that same word, and both seem to be arguing for the same type of improvement. Strange, to someone who wasn't exploding with anger it might almost look like we are actually agreeing.

Not that I expect you to finish reading this post, either, with the kind of mind blowing rage you must be experiencing.
m3talc0re X
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#178 - 2012-03-07 18:50:21 UTC
The first to cry out... yeah. You mad bro? I'm far from it. Don't mistake my swearing for anger or being upset. If anything, it's a lack of patience ;) And that was more or less directed at some people who think it's a good idea to remove the f'ing ability to salvage on the go from the Marauders. But to be fair, I did read your entire post, I did misread the part I quote though, so sorry. Kinda doing 4 things atm -_- And yeah, it makes sense, but they do need a bit more buffs. The drawbacks of using Marauders need to be removed.
Missiles ******* up the Golem is another story and another problem altogether. CCP really need to look at missiles and their penalties again...
Plyn
Uncharted.
#179 - 2012-03-07 19:04:16 UTC
Role Bonus: 50% increase to salvager effectiveness. 50% reduction in salvager duration.

Might do it. About four times as good as just a salvager, helping it keep up with the two tractors and hopefully getting it all done fast enough to be close or equal to just bringing in the dedicated salvager.

If the penalties you are talking about removing are the sensor strength and scan rez then I definitely disagree though. Cost doesn't keep expensive ships out of pvp. I've had fleets with entire squads of machariels come after us when they thought there was a chance they might snag some capitals.
m3talc0re X
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#180 - 2012-03-07 19:42:54 UTC
That role bonus may work, but I was trying to keep mine conservative.

Removing the sensor strength and scan resolution penalties is what I'm talking about. There's no reason for it. Cost will lower they're use in PvP, but not prevent it. They'll be pretty much on the same level as a Vindi, vindi having far better dps.