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Nerf AFK cloakers
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#21 - 2012-03-04 10:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Of course it is a reward. IF they wouldn't be any, they wouldn't be there in the first place.
No, it's not.

The “reward” is the ratters deciding to not use their brains and just go into hiding, which is not something given to the AFK cloaker just because he AFK cloaks. The “reward” is something the ratters choose and you can't blame the cloaker for their stupidity and general uselessness. They are in full control over whether they want to “reward” the cloaker for his (in)activity. More to the point the “reward” is not a reward — it's a self-imposed loss for the ratters.

The cloaker is not being rewarded for not playing the game. The generation of false intel is not a reward. Your entire premise is completely nonsensical.

Quote:
What you are sying is AFK cloakers sits in systems all days because they are not rewarded in any way ?????
No. I'm saying that they're sitting in systems all day because he hopes the opponent will be a useless idiot who chooses to punish himself. The AFK cloaker does nothing and wins nothing. He's not being rewarded.

Quote:
[the] threat of AFK cloaker is not an issue in this topic only his influence on behavior of other players while not playing the game.
…which is a complete non-issue since this kind of influence is an inherent part of the game. It is also a complete non-issue because it is outside of the AFK cloaker's control — it's something the other players choose to do for no particular reason aside from their being incompetent.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2012-03-04 10:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:


Yes but if you had basic reading skills you would see that threat of AFK cloaker is not an issue in this topic only his influence on behavior of other players while not playing the game.



Its not his fault people are cowards who hide from a name in local.
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-03-04 10:09:43 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:

Of course it is a reward. IF there wouldn't be any, they wouldn't be there in the first place.


Really? Cause I don't help newbs for reward nor do I necessarily fly lolfits for reward.


So you are doing all this stuff to punish your-self ??? Are you a masochist ?
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#24 - 2012-03-04 10:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:

Of course it is a reward. IF there wouldn't be any, they wouldn't be there in the first place.


Really? Cause I don't help newbs for reward nor do I necessarily fly lolfits for reward.


So you are doing all this stuff to punish your-self ??? Are you a masochist ?



Well, I guess the feeling if accomplishment from helping newbs as well as the fun in flying lolfits could be reward.

Do they count? lol

I would also like to site the entire market system, contracts, and PI as "reward for not playing".

The Drake is a Lie
Taresh Quickfingers
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-03-04 10:16:21 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:


Not playing the game should not be rewarded.


I know, right.

Like getting SP when not logged in.

It's a travesty, I tell you!

Mr Epeen Cool

We should get SP based on rat kills and ore refined!
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#26 - 2012-03-04 10:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
They generate false intel while not playing the game.

Not playing the game should not be rewarded.


You:

Uninstall.

Now.

E: Oh, and just by the bye, if he's A/F/K, then how exactly is he a threat?

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#27 - 2012-03-04 10:43:34 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:


[craven cowardice]

Why afk players is rewarded of changing my behavior that suits him while not playing the game ???


He's not changing your behaviour.

You're letting your own fear do that rather better than any cloaked paper aeroplane with RELLY BEEG MISSULZORS (TM) gaffer-strapped onto it ever could. After all, he's A/F/K, isn't he? You just said so! [/facetious]

Grow a spine, or go back to hisec.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#28 - 2012-03-04 10:47:40 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:


Oh how I wish CCP got them all.

Also grow a spine.


You sir are lacking fundamental logic skill. I never said ratting should be allowed in a complete safety. As for me CCP could even remove local, that would ifx the problem i am describing also.



You didn't have to explicitly say it--it's so bloody obvious that that's exactly what you want and feel entitled to, that it's not even funny.

Ugh...

::nullbears::RollRollUghWhat?

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#29 - 2012-03-04 10:49:09 UTC
Remove Local Chat Intel!
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-03-04 11:02:49 UTC  |  Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2
Tippia wrote:
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Of course it is a reward. IF they wouldn't be any, they wouldn't be there in the first place.
No, it's not.

The “reward” is the ratters deciding to not use their brains and just go into hiding, which is not something given to the AFK cloaker just because he AFK cloaks. The “reward” is something the ratters choose and you can't blame the cloaker for their stupidity and general uselessness. They are in full control over whether they want to “reward” the cloaker for his (in)activity. More to the point the “reward” is not a reward — it's a self-imposed loss for the ratters.


Forcing the ratter to use his brain(or dock) is a successful change in a behavior via no effort.

" it's a self-imposed loss for the ratters." Grifieng is a part of the game thus often someone else's loss is someone else's reward. It is a fundamental EVE characteristic.

"This self imposed loss" is successfully forced via being afk.

Your logic goes like this. If something is a potential threat and person chose to mitigate the risk via taking extra precocious or running away, it it this person's fault.

Tippia wrote:

The cloaker is not being rewarded for not playing the game. The generation of false intel is not a reward.

Yes it is. Someone else's loss is someone else's reward.


Tippia wrote:
No. I'm saying that they're sitting in systems all day because he hopes the opponent will be a useless idiot who chooses to punish himself. The AFK cloaker does nothing and wins nothing. He's not being rewarded.

So he has ability to grief while being AFK. Your point taken.


Tippia wrote:
It is also a complete non-issue because it is outside of the AFK cloaker's control — it's something the other players choose to do for no particular reason aside from their being incompetent.


Of course it is in his control. If we wasn't shown in local there would be no issue. Other player would not be put into position to choose between ( using brain , docking , moving somewhere else etc.)
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#31 - 2012-03-04 11:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2
Xercodo wrote:


Well, I guess the feeling if accomplishment from helping newbs as well as the fun in flying lolfits could be reward.

Do they count? lol


Yes they do. Isk is not the olny reward possible in EVE


Xercodo wrote:

I would also like to site the entire market system, contracts, and PI as "reward for not playing"


Mr Epeen wrote:


I know, right.

Like getting SP when not logged in.

It's a travesty, I tell you!

Mr Epeen Cool


Fair enough. Let me rephrase it then.
You should not be able to influence other people behavior while being afk
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2012-03-04 11:23:56 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
"This self imposed loss" is successfully forced via being afk.
…except that it's not forced and it's not connected to being AFK. It's something they choose to do of their own free will, and the “success” is completely decoupled from the cloaker's (lack of) actions.

Quote:
Your logic goes like this. If something is a potential threat and person chose to mitigate the risk via taking extra preconscious or running away, it it this person's fault.
No. My logic is like this: it's not the cloaker's fault if some moron decides to make silly decisions for stupid reasons. The moron could just choose not to be quite so moronic and make clever decisions instead, and thus make the problem the moron him/herself created go away. I see no reason why the cloaker should be punished with a nerf when exactly nothing of what happens is his or her fault.

Quote:
Someone else's loss is someone else's reward.
Nope. Someone's loss is their loss. That is all. Nothing is gained in the process (and, again, it's completely decoupled from the guy being cloaking AFK anyway).

Quote:
So he has ability to grief while being AFK.
No. He can't do anything, that's the whole point: the situation rests entirely on the moron's shoulders — it's his fault; “fixing” the problem starts with fixing his stupidity. The cloaker is neither part of the problem or of the solution. Also, he's most definitely not griefing anyone due to the simple fact that he's not doing anything at all. By the way, griefing is not part of the game — griefing is prohibited by the EULA and will get you banned.

Quote:
Of course it is in his control.
Of course it isn't. He's not doing anything. He cannot make people dock up or run away or do anything — they have to choose to do so of their own free will. All he can do is sit there and not do anything. What effect his might have on other people in the system is entirely up to those other people, and they're going to do whatever they want to do in the end anyway.

The cloaker has zero ability to change people's behaviour — only they can do that. He's just a guy in a cloaked ship, not a creature of unspeakable arcane mystical mental powers.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#33 - 2012-03-04 11:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
I would also like to site the entire market system, contracts, and PI as "reward for not playing"
Fair enough. Let me rephrase it then.
You should not be able to influence other people behavior while being afk
So you're saying that we should also ditch the entire market system, contracts, and PI (because rephrasing it doesn't help you here: all of those things allows you to do exactly what you don't want to be allowed — it's inherent in the game design)?

By the way, being AFK or not is not really a factor.
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-03-04 11:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2
Tippia wrote:

No. My logic is like this: it's not the cloaker's fault if some moron decides to make silly decisions for stupid reasons. The moron could just choose not to be quite so moronic and make clever decisions instead, and thus make the problem the moron him/herself created go away. I see no reason why the cloaker should be punished with a nerf when exactly nothing of what happens is his or her fault.


So having potential threat that can spontaneously get alive next to you is a "stupid reason" and "silly decisions" is taking that into consideration in everything you do.

If thats the case the only moron that you describe here is you sir.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2012-03-04 11:38:02 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
So having potential threat that can spontaneously get alive next to you is a "stupid reason" and "silly decisions" is taking that into consideration in everything you do.
No. Getting your panties in a twist is the silly decision, and doing it based on a name in local is the stupid reason.

…also, blaming your own actions on other people not doing anything is particularly laughable.
Chatha Gathii
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-03-04 11:39:08 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:

Forcing the ratter to use his brain(or dock) is a successful change in a behavior via no effort.

" it's a self-imposed loss for the ratters." Grifieng is a part of the game thus often someone else's loss is someone else's reward. It is a fundamental EVE characteristic.

"This self imposed loss" is successfully forced via being afk.

I don't recall ever having been "forced" to do anything by a player who is AFK.

Quote:

Your logic goes like this. If something is a potential threat and person chose to mitigate the risk via taking extra precocious or running away, it it this person's fault.

Your problem is how you evaluate the risk and/or what you do to mitigate it. It is perfectly possible to safely carry out business in null sec while a strange face is in local. You can do this with minimal impact on profits, unless your profit stream depends heavily on being entirely risk-free.

In null-sec (and low-sec) you should always have to take precautions. A much bigger problem for the game is that most of the time these regions feel (and are) perfectly safe. So people start to feel entitled and complain at times when null-sec is actually working as intended.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#37 - 2012-03-04 11:41:56 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Tippia wrote:

No. My logic is like this: it's not the cloaker's fault if some moron decides to make silly decisions for stupid reasons. The moron could just choose not to be quite so moronic and make clever decisions instead, and thus make the problem the moron him/herself created go away. I see no reason why the cloaker should be punished with a nerf when exactly nothing of what happens is his or her fault.


So having potential threat that can spontaneously get alive next to you is a "stupid reason" and "silly decisions" is taking that into consideration in everything you do.

If thats the case the only moron that you describe here is you sir.


So what system/s do you rat--no doubt...uumm...very keenly...in, then? I would be honoured to come...assist you against that big bad cloaky-cloaky.Twisted

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-03-04 11:51:17 UTC
I remember I once made a thread about AFK cloakers. It was more against botters that used to warp to a safe and cloak up. Since then I grew up a bit and embraced the "eve is a dangerous place philosophy", a philosophy that I recommend everyone to endorse in order to enjoy this game at his best.

The AFK cloakers must be there to remember you that you aren't in Empire anymore. You must act in groups, or take the risk of acting solo with a neutral/red in local. In 0.0 and lowsec you have to cope with risk.

The problem with AFK cloakers is not AFK cloaking, but the threads and the people complaining about it. As someone pointed out already, delayed local would fix this in two ways: first, AFK cloakers would not be able to really influence how other players play, and the other players will not see anything. Delayed local would also reduce the possibility for a "ninja" to be spotted (think of ninja plexing, ninja PI, ninja ratting, ninja-whatever in 0.0).





Obvious Cyno Alt
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-03-04 12:32:22 UTC
First off, as the name says, this is an alt, as I do not wish to have a moron AFKing in my region any time soon due to this post. (yes, people are dumb enough around here to try to grief you for a mere forum post.... so the alt is the counter!)

Anyway, I've been reading alot of these threads over the years and (AFK) cloaking is broken. (almost) Everything in EVE has a counter to it, and those that don't, are clearly broken.

Anyway, I agree that AFK cloaking in it self is merely exploiting another broken system, which is local chat. If you fix local, the AFK cloaker stops making sense. Although fixing local isn't as simple as removing it. I've lived in WH space, and that local setup is broken too, leading to carpal tunnel syndrome due to clicking the scan button on dir scanner!

Also, the problem is not a Ibis sitting in a cloak. Most of null tends to be cyno jammed, so a Ibis or even a BC cloaked up is not a threat. Just have a inty and a couple of DPS boats securing your mining / ratting, and you're done. The problem is that moron that's sitting in a cov ops/force recon that packs that crappy covert cyno. He can indeed camp 23/7 in your system, waiting for you to make a mistake, or gather such a "camp" that it makes it worthwhile to jump in a ton of cov ops and have a laugh!

So, quite honestly, the broken intel local tool has it's counter in the ability of any other player in generating false intel. The cloak does not have a counter! Sure, you can make a defense fleet, you can camp the gates ... but you seem to forget that these are for the most of the times, alts, trained to be able to get into a cov ops and fit a cov ops cloak and covert cyno. It will sit in your system for weeks and if you camp it down tight, they'll just log off and play with they mains, returning when they go AFK from the computer.

This makes no sense to me. Local turns nullsec into easy mode, but there's no real alternative. WH space is just as broken! I don't mind having all of these broken, but make it even in either buffing some sort of way to finding a person AFK cloaking or nerfing the cloak so that it becomes unpratical to AFK cloak.

Don't really mind the false intel, as long as you're at the computer providing it!

And for those saying that some AFK cloaking in the enemy territory is not getting any rewards... are you serious? Not all rewards are in the form of iskies! Denial of resources is a reward mate. Not direct but non the less a reward!


So, I'm not against cloaks, just against being able to **** on someone who's playing the game while you're away at work. I'm not pro local either, Remove it, nerf it, do anything, as long as you give us another viable way to get intel that does not work by pressing a button every few seconds! :)
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-03-04 12:46:33 UTC
Camios wrote:
The AFK cloakers must be there to remember you that you aren't in Empire anymore.

And who is there to remember the AFK cloakers that they themselves are not in empire anymore?

I don't have a problem with AFK cloakers doing what they do. I have a problem with them being able to play reckless with no consequences to their actions. AFK cloakers have the ability to keep systems on high alert and degrade their earnings (as it should be, mind you) while going to the movies or heading to the pizza parlor. And I have a problem with that.

So sure, cloakers should be able to remind you that you are in dangerous space. But this should also apply to them (AFK cloakers). I believe that if you are in space projecting danger then others should be able to project danger onto you. This ability to keep parties engaged and actively hunting you in space (degrading and wearing them out) while you yourself are having a beer at the local bar is against what Eve is about.

Go ahead, project your danger. But be at the keyboard like everyone else. Or die, like everyone else.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.