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[CSM] The Independent Voter's Guide to the CSM 7 Elections

First post
Author
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2012-03-03 19:57:54 UTC
Varr Dorn wrote:
This is not demonstrably incorrect. It simply depends on your point of view. My point of view dictates that my vote demonstrates my opinion. If I want to demonstrate, for instance, support for the Mittani's views, I vote for the Mittani. It won't make him any more powerful in the CSM (it all depends on how they work, as you said), but it does demonstrate to CCP where my priorities are. For the record, I am an 'independent'/undecided right now.

Ah, but if you knew that Alex was going to be elected, then you could vote for someone else that you think should be on the CSM, and you would effectively be getting two for the price of one.

The beauty of vote-reallocation systems is that they allow your vote to indicate not just your *first* preference, but also your preference rankings.

Quote:
It does not amplify the voting power of organized blocs. According to you, the organized bloc candidates are fairly certain to be elected. So the vote changes nothing of the results, except expressing one's opinion.

This is not correct, for the reason stated above. You may wish to read the Wikipedia article on Voting Systems for a more in-depth discussion of the topic.

Quote:
If someone decides they don't want to waste a Vote on Mittens, but they like his views. So every extra vote goes to a candidate with similar views. How is the CSM now more representative of the playerbase? Now we just have Mittens +clone...

If this potential outcome concerns you, then you would be in favor of a system that only transfers undervotes, but not overvotes.

People can -- and should -- argue passionately about exactly what voting system is best. But mathematically, it can be shown that there are systems that are far better than the current one in producing results that represent the views of the voting community.

I am not advocating for a perfect voting system, because there isn't one. I'm just arguing in favor of a *better* voting system, of which there are many.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-03-04 14:44:40 UTC
Snowflake Tem wrote:
But you have to admire the skill of a guy who can guide the minds of the uninformed in a manner that at first glance appears to be impartial.

My intent was not to "appear" impartial. My intent was to get people to think about issues related to the election process.

I probably benefit from the current system, because of name recognition and the incumbency effect. But unlike some, I am not a natural politician, and I would prefer a system that put more emphasis on the qualifications of the individual candidates and the quality of their arguments, because I believe that would result in a more effective CSM.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#103 - 2012-03-04 15:58:05 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Snowflake Tem wrote:
But you have to admire the skill of a guy who can guide the minds of the uninformed in a manner that at first glance appears to be impartial.

My intent was not to "appear" impartial. My intent was to get people to think about issues related to the election process.

I probably benefit from the current system, because of name recognition and the incumbency effect. But unlike some, I am not a natural politician, and I would prefer a system that put more emphasis on the qualifications of the individual candidates and the quality of their arguments, because I believe that would result in a more effective CSM.

You should be giving them a lecture in grammar, not this half-way apologist vote-mongering stance.

They ****** up their English grammar reading skills and you should not make any excuses at all on their behalf. They are jacking off the horse while all you wanted was to get Jack off the horse.

Nyan

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-03-05 00:03:01 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
You should be giving them a lecture in grammar, not this half-way apologist vote-mongering stance.

I find it more effective to overlook any minor technical deficiencies in posts, but rather focus on those parts of them that will advance the discussion.

If they are serious, they will appreciate it, and if they are trolls, it will annoy them. So it's win-win. Twisted

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Killer Gandry
Fenghuang Corporation
#105 - 2012-03-05 01:06:18 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:

AFK mining isn't really that bad, but does still detract from the entire idea of multiplayer at all. And the fact that it can be done AFK while almost all other activities can't be done AFK is an inbalance and an additional reason it should be changed to help stop the ease with which these programs can be written for botting.


AFK cloaking comes to mind there. Howmuch do those participate of the entire idea of multiplayer?

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2012-03-05 10:56:05 UTC
Killer Gandry wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:

AFK mining isn't really that bad, but does still detract from the entire idea of multiplayer at all. And the fact that it can be done AFK while almost all other activities can't be done AFK is an inbalance and an additional reason it should be changed to help stop the ease with which these programs can be written for botting.


AFK cloaking comes to mind there. Howmuch do those participate of the entire idea of multiplayer?


I think you posted this in the wrong thread. But thanks for the bump! Twisted

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Azure Moonlight
Atomic Core Industries and Science
#107 - 2012-03-05 11:14:16 UTC
I really wondered about Issler Dainzes thread myself. I like some of her ideas, but the whole thing kinda reminds me of a bad voting scam. To much blah and goons all over the topic.

So who is this Issler Dainze, does she mean business or is it really just a troll? (and wtf is up with CCP, if they allow such a thing in CSM elections)

Yay 10 years! :D

Salmax Vrall
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2012-03-05 12:18:16 UTC
Trebor, thanks for this 'independent' Blink guide.

Add it to blogs, forums and podcasts and I reckon there's enough info to make a call on.

You got one of my votes dude.

Keep doing what you're doing.

[b]"I believe the common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility and murder." Werner Herzog[/b]

Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2012-03-05 12:30:22 UTC
Delici Feelgood wrote:


He's a member of Goonswarm, if he hasn't finished basic training he may not have advanced past the Sesame street videos as yet. Blink

And you are a member of npc corp. So either you are a coward to not post with your main. Or you are just worthless as human being and no one wants you.

Either way. Congratulations.

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]

Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
#110 - 2012-03-05 13:25:33 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
You should be giving them a lecture in grammar, not this half-way apologist vote-mongering stance.

I find it more effective to overlook any minor technical deficiencies in posts, but rather focus on those parts of them that will advance the discussion.

If they are serious, they will appreciate it, and if they are trolls, it will annoy them. So it's win-win. Twisted


You should know that it is appreciated. Not everyone cares to, or has time for, appeasing the self-appointed guardians of the English language with appropriate punctuation.

I can't find a thread discussing the merits of different voting models. Does it exist?


Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#111 - 2012-03-05 14:08:53 UTC
Snowflake Tem wrote:
You should know that it is appreciated. Not everyone cares to, or has time for, appeasing the self-appointed guardians of the English language with appropriate punctuation.

Sometimes the the appropriate punctuation completely changes the meaning of a sentence.

Like; "The Independent Voter's Guide to the CSM 7 Elections" vs. "The Independent Voter's Guide to the CSM 7 Elections"

Nyan

Qin Shi Huang
Doomheim
#112 - 2012-03-05 14:26:16 UTC
+1 This is excellent.

.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#113 - 2012-03-05 14:38:49 UTC
I had almost bought on it until i read the attack on Issler Daize.

Honestly her forum campaign has been easily improveable and she's quite hopeless to build enough support from the miner crowd in the short time left, but provided she's the only CSM runner to take WiS mostly seriously, that's where my vote will end up. if i was interested to "winning" i would go for Hans, but, whatever, passing April this game will no longer concern me...
Jalmari Huitsikko
Avanto
Hole Control
#114 - 2012-03-05 14:55:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jalmari Huitsikko
As a long time xxpizzaxx member Trebor (or his alt) is xxpizzaxx official CSM canditate.

Everyone should vote him. He's cool guy.

Vote Trebor Vote PIZZA.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2012-03-05 15:18:32 UTC
There is no such thing as objectivity. The pretense of objectivity is the cloak that the very worst types of intellectual dishonesty and hidden agendas shroud themselves in, especially on these forums. Trebor, as a CSM candidate, is a known quantity in terms of his biases, which are available to the public in the form of his candidacy thread and his past actions as a CSM member. As such, his biases are easy to account for, and I would think that anyone would prefer them to the unknowable biases of someone claiming not to have taken a position in this election, with no visible corp affiliation, or from an NPC corp.
Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
#116 - 2012-03-05 17:12:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Snowflake Tem
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Snowflake Tem wrote:
You should know that it is appreciated. Not everyone cares to, or has time for, appeasing the self-appointed guardians of the English language with appropriate punctuation.

Sometimes the the appropriate punctuation completely changes the meaning of a sentence.

Like; "The Independent Voter's Guide to the CSM 7 Elections" vs. "The Independent Voter's Guide to the CSM 7 Elections"


In that case I think you meant emphasis, which I agree is important, but can also be forgiven. Period.

The Order of Symbolic Measures
The Order of Symbolic Measures
The Order of Symbolic Measures
The Order of Symbolic Measures
Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
#117 - 2012-03-05 17:58:57 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
I had almost bought on it until i read the attack on Issler Daize.

Honestly her forum campaign has been easily improveable and she's quite hopeless to build enough support from the miner crowd in the short time left, but provided she's the only CSM runner to take WiS mostly seriously, that's where my vote will end up. if i was interested to "winning" i would go for Hans, but, whatever, passing April this game will no longer concern me...


I also think Hans has the strongest support outside of the CSM6 runners.
WiS will remain on back-burn until the mit-master gets round to giving his blessing so there really is no point putting your vote in support of it.
Now, if Trebor changed his stance on the issue that would be a game changer.
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#118 - 2012-03-05 18:45:41 UTC
Snowflake Tem wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
I had almost bought on it until i read the attack on Issler Daize.

Honestly her forum campaign has been easily improveable and she's quite hopeless to build enough support from the miner crowd in the short time left, but provided she's the only CSM runner to take WiS mostly seriously, that's where my vote will end up. if i was interested to "winning" i would go for Hans, but, whatever, passing April this game will no longer concern me...


I also think Hans has the strongest support outside of the CSM6 runners.
WiS will remain on back-burn until the mit-master gets round to giving his blessing so there really is no point putting your vote in support of it.
Now, if Trebor changed his stance on the issue that would be a game changer.


At this point,CCP has already decided what they are going to be doing for the immediate future. No amount of noise about Inarna is going to change that after the events is last summer. They need a solid plan, they need gameplay and they need to do it right. Until the small team they have working those issues resolves them, CCP isn't even going to begin considering the reallocation of resources. Keeping the conversation going about Incarna is fine, but the reason you do not see people like myself or Trebor spending time trying to make it a campaign issue is that based upon everything we know and cCP has said, our efforts are better spent promoting dialogue on more near term issues. Don't shoot the messenger. :)

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

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Swesal
#119 - 2012-03-05 19:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Swesal
Can't help but think there is somekinda oldboys club attitude here, you have most the CSM's all patting eachother on the backs saying what a great jobs that some of them did, i'v even heard some trying to take credit for crucible's success, imply that it was CSM's that showed CCP the light...... and not to take away from the actual work you all did do, but it was the the riots, and unsubs that showed CCP the light not the CSM, CSM passed along the crowdsource info, and helped in the process no question, but it was the player that forced the change. Crucible would have never been released had such events never happened.

I kinda went off there, the real reason i'm posting is to ask, what in your opinion qualifies someone as a proven performer?

I would think it would be something like they have been on CSM in the past, and have performed well, but this clearly isn't the case. So if you could shad some light on what looks like oldboys club picks of Hans and your take on "proven performers" as the only votes not wasted that would be great, thanks.
Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
#120 - 2012-03-05 19:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Snowflake Tem
Seleene wrote:

At this point,CCP has already decided what they are going to be doing for the immediate future. No amount of noise about Inarna is going to change that after the events is last summer. They need a solid plan, they need gameplay and they need to do it right. Until the small team they have working those issues resolves them, CCP isn't even going to begin considering the reallocation of resources. Keeping the conversation going about Incarna is fine, but the reason you do not see people like myself or Trebor spending time trying to make it a campaign issue is that based upon everything we know and cCP has said, our efforts are better spent promoting dialogue on more near term issues. Don't shoot the messenger. :)


I'm already resigned to that fact that banging on the incarna drum is pointless.
But you must agree that in speaking as one voice CSM6 has left voters with very little to choose between the previously elected candidates. More of the same isn't as an appealing a message as you guys seem to think it is.
But there will always be a special place in my heart for you Seleene, so no head shots today.