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ECM nerf suggestion

Author
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-03-02 20:34:33 UTC
Shandir wrote:
I like this idea, and agree that it would need to be balanced with a significant boost to tank-ability for ECM ships.
I think the other racial EW modules are all hideously underpowered, though, and need to be heavily boosted.


Damps need a boost, TPs and TDs work just fine.
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-03-03 01:37:17 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Shandir wrote:
I like this idea, and agree that it would need to be balanced with a significant boost to tank-ability for ECM ships.
I think the other racial EW modules are all hideously underpowered, though, and need to be heavily boosted.


Damps need a boost, TPs and TDs work just fine.


They work sort of.

TPs obviously work but don't actually protect you from anything, so shouldn't really be included.

TDs work in limited situations. The problem really is that unlike falcons the TD boats aren't just about TDs. In fact they are seldom if ever used for TDs, they are all about neuts. TDs help in small gang situations, but you don't take a ship out of the fight the same way the ECM does.

Damps have the same problem. The ships are more useful for long range tackle than for damps, and ditto TPs. And that's the real problem.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-03-04 16:19:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
f you're getting jammed at over 100 km etc.

In larger fights yes. In smaller gangs, completely impractical.

Quote:
use drones or FOF missiles.

See my previous posts on how drones and FoFs are an utter ******* joke vs ECM ships.

Quote:
ECM is balanced

At larger gang sizes, yes. At small gang size, it's stupidly OP.

Quote:
Try getting 20k EHP on a Blackbird

Blackbirds can jam further out than a Falcon, they don't need a 20k buffer.


Is this the Blackbird that you're so afraid of?

[Blackbird, my bb]
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I
'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I
'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I
'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
10MN MicroWarpdrive II

Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
'Arbalest' Assault Missile Launcher, Defender I

Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I
Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I
Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I

78+53 range on ECM
150km targeting range
100 dps (short range, for taking out drones)
9.3k EHP buffer tank
1310 m/s WITH MICROWARPDRIVE ACTIVE
Capacitor lasts 65 seconds with all modules active.
**With all skills level 5 (!!)

You can swap out some of the mods. Smartbomb defense or overdrive injector instead of Armor plates; Augmentors instead of Projectors and another ECM instead of sebo; less guns, more missile missiles; etc. etc.

But no matter how you mod it, it's slow as hell, has no tank, no tackle and no damage. Your whole purpose is to act as a force multiplier and if you miss a cycle with a target that's in range... well... hope that you don't pop in the next 20 seconds.
Emperor Salazar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-03-04 18:06:32 UTC
Ares Renton wrote:


All ideas are based "In RL". The more plausible something is, the more immersive it is.


Good god get out. Game balance comes first. Fitting in with RL or lore is secondary. You know why? ITS A MAKE BELIEVE GAME. The devs can reconstruct "reality" and "lore" to fit the game balance. Simple as that.

Quote:


Anyone who believes that RL has no bearing on fiction is an idiot not worth listening to.


I see what you did there. It wasn't clever.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-03-04 19:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Ares Renton wrote:


All ideas are based "In RL". The more plausible something is, the more immersive it is.


Good god get out. Game balance comes first. Fitting in with RL or lore is secondary. You know why? ITS A MAKE BELIEVE GAME. The devs can reconstruct "reality" and "lore" to fit the game balance. Simple as that.

Quote:


Anyone who believes that RL has no bearing on fiction is an idiot not worth listening to.


I see what you did there. It wasn't clever.


I have no idea why you have such an aversion to real life. News flash for you: space shuttles exist in real life, you'd better quit eve. And while the devs can make the fluff whatever they want, it's always better if the stuff they're making up makes sense.

Besides, I think this idea would be great in terms of GAME BALANCE, which is what you ironically seem to have ignored. ECM isn't broken, I'd say it's balanced by the weakness of the chassis that use ECM. But it's a bad, unfun mechanic. I'd much rather have this suggestion applied, as it provides a layer of strategy and depth and fun to the module. (But ECM boats should be compensated).

I've fought ECM before, I've used ECM. It's not so amazing that it breaks the game and in most cases I'd personally rather just take out a combat ship. Maybe in alliance tournaments they can figure out how to exploit max-skilled pilots in tech 2 ships in an artificial combat environment against pilots who don't know what to expect, but that's not the most accurate way to judge balance is it? (This also being the same tournament that was rigged the year before.)
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#46 - 2012-03-04 19:21:09 UTC
All other ewar has a counter skill to buffer. Targeting for damps, cap recharge for vamp, weapons upgrade skills for tracking etc. None of those work well when you are stacking that ewar but those skills work for standard fit ewar. There is no skill buffer for ECM.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Velicitia
XS Tech
#47 - 2012-03-04 19:37:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Ioci wrote:
All other ewar has a counter skill to buffer. Targeting for damps, cap recharge for vamp, weapons upgrade skills for tracking etc. None of those work well when you are stacking that ewar but those skills work for standard fit ewar. There is no skill buffer for ECM.



Modules too.. it's not exactly 1:1, but they might just be the ticket to making the other guy 'splode.

Sebo/Rebo counters damp
Tracking Comp/Link for TD

Blasters with antimatter > all of the above Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#48 - 2012-03-04 20:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Cordo Draken
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
We have 3 three counters to ECM already

1. ECCM
2. FoF missiles
3. Drones

Why the hell do we need yet another counter?

I suggest your learn how to counter ECM rather than whine about it.

As someone who's flown every ECM boat including the infamous pre-nerf Falcon, I like to think I know what I'm talking about here.

1. Worthless. Takes up a slot while having no secondary benefits, and does very little. The chance-based mechanic of ECM contributes to this.
2. Also worthless - FOFs do hilariously low DPS and will only even target the ECM ship if you're lucky. They're also pretty much only applicable to the Drake, as that's pretty much the only missile boat larger than a frigate worth using.
3. Only any good if said ECM boat is even in range - not exactly likely if fitted and flown well.

In smaller engagements, ECM is overpowered. Simple as.
The reason it's so difficult to nerf is that it'd hard to nerf the EWAR without breaking half a dozen ships, but this idea makes it less viable for locking down an entire gang with 2 ships while still keeping it useful in an anti-support role. Best solution I've seen so far, frankly.


Look, Threads like this tick me off, simply because these ships are available to everyone. If you think they are so OP then why don't you fly one?
1. ECCM is very Viable as it pretty much doubles your chance to resist ECM.
2. FOF is useless, if you want to argue a point, this would be better.
3. Drones WORK! If you see an ECM boat, swap targets immediately. This is where ppl fail... you want to talk range, close the gap or GTFO since you seem to refer this on a 1v1 scale. Also ECM drones are easily taken down by combat drones. I was just in a fight where the guy had a swarm of ECM, they got me on their first cycle, but I popped my drones out and when they failed a cycle, I locked (With a BS mind you) and my drones did the rest and I came out the victor.
4. Projected ECCM... why ppl forget this mod is beyond me. If you're running in small gangs and you don't want to sacrafice your precious mid-slot, get a dedicated Anti-ECM boat loaded with ECCM (2) and Projected ECCM (2), I can think of a few Armor ships that could fill this roll pretty well.
Edit: 5. If you were to implement your idea, CCP would have to make ECM ships Tank better, cause atm, they're pretty much a paper bag... gee I wonder why?

Conclusion, ECM is fine the way it is... the Failure here is People who don't want to bother preparing for it... well boo hoo. Sun Tzu would be ashamed of you! Your failure is not CCP's problem, and you are your own worst enemy.

Good Day

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 

Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-03-04 21:43:43 UTC
I liked the part where the OP started thanking people like he had won the debate and CCP was on the path to implementing his idea. What a maroon.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#50 - 2012-03-04 22:09:12 UTC
What is moronic abut basic curtsey? Sure by the tone of your “message” you are unfamiliar with the concept but if one wants for people to do something, like debate an issue, it is only right to thank them if they do. Ad least learn some manners if you are unable to prove constructive comment.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...

Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-03-04 22:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
I should probably make something clear here: whenever I talk about ECM being overpowered, I'm talking about it in a small gang environment. In larger fights, ECM is fine.

Ares Renton wrote:
Hilariously awful Blackbird fit


Thank you for proving beyond doubt that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Quote:
overdrive injector instead of Armor plates

... Who does this and why have you not kicked them from your corp for being a dribbling idiot?

Quote:
But no matter how you mod it, it's slow as hell, has no tank, no tackle and no damage.

I'm seeing 1.4km/s with no speed mods. Only really slow compared to a frigate or nanocruiser there - and why exactly is the fact it has no tackle or damage a problem? Logistics don't have tackle or damage because they don't need it and I doubt you'd be shouting about that as a crippling disadvantage.
Christ you're simple.
Here, I'll give you a free lesson on how to fit and use an ECM boat. Seems you need it:
__________________________________________
Fit 1 - Honour tanked:
Signal Distortion Amplifier II x2

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive
ECM - Race specific x4
Sensor Booster II

AML II w/ defenders or just lights
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I x2
Medium Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
__________________________________________
111km optimal 150km max jam range, 10 strength, no tank but when you're jamming from that stupidly far who cares? It only costs about 10 million and can single handedly ruin a small gang. The only viable way to beat it? Drag around a 100mil isk sniper ship with ECCM and a hell of a lot of luck.
All that for a T1 cruiser.

Oh and said sniper ship can't be missile based, as from that far away defenders work very well.
__________________________________________
Fit 2 - buffered:
[Blackbird, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive
ECM - Race specific x4
Sensor Booster II

Empty highs

Medium Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I x2
__________________________________________

Once again capable of jamming at sniper range and can actually survive being sneezed at. Nothing fits into the highs but once again, who cares? Without carting around a sniper ship that costs 10x as much, there's not much you can do to stop it.
There's also a halfway fit that has a jam range of "only" 93km, but has both a buffer and highslot defences.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-03-04 22:25:29 UTC
Quote:
What is moronic abut basic curtsey? Sure by the tone of your “message” you are unfamiliar with the concept but if one wants for people to do something, like debate an issue, it is only right to thank them if they do. Ad least learn some manners if you are unable to prove constructive comment.

I wouldn't bother engaging Caliph in conversation, judging from his posts across various other threads he's an utter tool that I suspect doesn't actually play this game.

Quote:
1. ECCM is very Viable as it pretty much doubles your chance to resist ECM.

You'd think so, but chance based mechanics can and do still result in stupidly high jam rates even against ECCM'd targets. In my considerable experience with ewar ships, ECCM'd ones are barely harder to jam than the regular ones, and in small gangs it makes no difference at all to the outcome.

Quote:
3. Drones WORK! If you see an ECM boat, swap targets immediately. This is where ppl fail... you want to talk range, close the gap or GTFO since you seem to refer this on a 1v1 scale.

... So all of your ships have 100km drone control ranges eh? Your fits must be very interesting.
And where did I say 1v1? ECM is a problem in small gang combat. If the ECM ships gang is remotely competent, you're not closing distance on him.

Quote:
Also ECM drones are easily taken down by combat drones. I was just in a fight where the guy had a swarm of ECM, they got me on their first cycle, but I popped my drones out and when they failed a cycle, I locked (With a BS mind you) and my drones did the rest and I came out the victor.

I've made no mention of ECM drones anywhere.

Quote:
Edit: 5. If you were to implement your idea, CCP would have to make ECM ships Tank better, cause atm, they're pretty much a paper bag... gee I wonder why?

Because they operate so far out that tank is all but irrelevant in small gang engagements. Gotta love how people whine about EHP figures on ECM ships without having a clue how they actually fly.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-03-04 22:27:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
4. Projected ECCM... why ppl forget this mod is beyond me. If you're running in small gangs and you don't want to sacrafice your precious mid-slot, get a dedicated Anti-ECM boat loaded with ECCM (2) and Projected ECCM (2), I can think of a few Armor ships that could fill this roll pretty well.

Wait, ok this is just too funny - you're saying that a better alternative to giving up a midslot, is to give up a pilot to a dedicated ECCM ship? Did I actually read that right?
The most hilariously ironic thing about this "solution" is that the simple counter is... jam the ECCM ship. Oh look, the rest of the gang just lost their protection. Not to mention everyone will have to stay within 20km of it to have a chance, oh and the fact it'll only be able to help 2 people at once.

Never mind said ship is worthless dead weight if the enemy don't have an ECM ship. Sensor boosters and tracking computers are never a wasted slot.

Really though, and this is to everyone - I've yet to see a valid argument why the OP's idea is actually bad. So far all the anti-OP posters have come up with is "LOL WHINER" and "FIT ECCM LULZ" - no points, no evidence, no argument, just flaming it for being an ECM thread.

And my own take on counters that I've seen work (but are not ideal for whatever reason):
- Sentry drones - these actually have the range and damage to take out an ECM ship, if you can get them to aggress it, and if your gang happens to have one of the two(?) ships smaller than a BS that can actually use them.
- Your own ECM ship - needs little explanation, but something is wrong when the main counter to X is also X.
- Sniper tier 3 with ECCM - if it can get a lock on the ECM ship, it has a pretty good chance.
Never mind the fact it costs 10x as much as the Blackbird it'd need to beat, and will die in a fire if anything lays a finger on it.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-03-04 23:21:06 UTC
ECM is fine, learn to play. Lose the entitlement mentality. Stop minimizing and ignoring counters within the game because you do not wish to include them in your fit and because you flat out dislike ECM and want to be able to completely disregard it. They aren't removing the tactical aspect of ecm from the game, nor from smaller engagements.

ECM ships countering ecm ships is perfectly fine as well. Its like titans being a wonderful counter to.... titans.

The canned politeness while suggesting a biased craptastic change to the game gets no respect here. Pretty please take your "dimwitted play to the lowest common denominator of human intelligence, I don't like it so its broken rhetoric" somewhere else. With sugar on top and lots of love.

Equip ECCM and understand 1 eccm isn't a 100% effective counter, hire or become a ewar specialist to provide counter ecm or projected ECCM, equip backup sensors or die in a fireball.
Emperor Salazar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-03-04 23:38:31 UTC
Ares Renton wrote:


I have no idea why you have such an aversion to real life. News flash for you: space shuttles exist in real life, you'd better quit eve. And while the devs can make the fluff whatever they want, it's always better if the stuff they're making up makes sense.)


I still haven't read your entire proposal, just fyi so you can omit the ECM discussion. My point is RL should never be a concern when balancing game features. Its a damn sci fi game that takes place far away in a universe years from now. It doesn't have to make sense in terms of our current reality because the reality that is a universe far away thousands of years from now is an entirely different reality altogether. As long as they mold it into the lore they create, it makes sense just fine.

Thats the part you don't seem to get. They can recreate the lore however they need to in order to mold it into game balance.

I don't plan on reading your proposal btw, because its about ECM and thus something that will likely not be touched even if your idea is fantastic. ECM was already heavily nerfed but only after quite a lot of indications that it was overpowered and excessive whining on the forums, oh and the creation of a fantastic meme (because of falcon). Its simply not a big enough deal right now for CCP to touch it.

I just wanted to pee on you for saying "In RL."
Emperor Salazar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-03-04 23:39:08 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:
What is moronic abut basic curtsey? Sure by the tone of your “message” you are unfamiliar with the concept but if one wants for people to do something, like debate an issue, it is only right to thank them if they do. Ad least learn some manners if you are unable to prove constructive comment.


Welcome to the forums bro.
Kristoffon Ellecon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-03-04 23:41:10 UTC
This is indeed the best idea-thread I've read this year.

If I may offer a suggestion for further improvement to make the ECCM module more useful it could be merged with the Sensor Booster since both do basically the same job of strengthening sensors. This, along with the OP's idea, would make things pretty much perfect IMHO because it becomes feasible to fly a sebo that doubles as eccm without feeling like you're wasting a slot.

Also posting that ecm drones are overpowered. If a cruiser or bigger ship doesn't have its own drones -- and many ships don't carry drones -- then it's simply unable to fight them.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-03-05 01:07:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
Stop minimizing and ignoring counters within the game because you do not wish to include them in your fit

I haven't minimized anything. ECCM is semi-useless, FoFs are completely useless, and drones only work if the ECM ship pilot is as stupid as you. I've listed off realistic counters to ECM ships, and all of them are impractical on some level.

Quote:
ECM ships countering ecm ships is perfectly fine as well

Yes. Yes it is.
ECM ships being the main, and arguably only, consistently viable counter is not.

Quote:
Equip ECCM and understand 1 eccm isn't a 100% effective counter, hire or become a ewar specialist to provide counter ecm or projected ECCM, equip backup sensors or die in a fireball.

ECCM is ******* trash for anything but making T3s hard to probe. I've seen it used, and I've laughed at the ones who equipped it as I jammed them regardless. On the small gang scale, it's a complete waste of a slot.

In larger fleets, like ECM itself, it's pretty much fine. In small gangs, it's more useful reprocessed.

I really do have to congratulate you on maintaining your longstanding tradition of brainless narrowmindedness and utter lack of reading comprehension or ability to make an argument.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-03-05 01:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
Stop minimizing and ignoring counters within the game because you do not wish to include them in your fit

I haven't minimized anything. ECCM is semi-useless, FoFs are completely useless, and drones only work if the ECM ship pilot is as stupid as you. I've listed off realistic counters to ECM ships, and all of them are impractical on some level.

Quote:
ECM ships countering ecm ships is perfectly fine as well

Yes. Yes it is.
ECM ships being the main, and arguably only, consistently viable counter is not.

Quote:
Equip ECCM and understand 1 eccm isn't a 100% effective counter, hire or become a ewar specialist to provide counter ecm or projected ECCM, equip backup sensors or die in a fireball.

ECCM is ******* trash for anything but making T3s hard to probe. I've seen it used, and I've laughed at the ones who equipped it as I jammed them regardless. On the small gang scale, it's a complete waste of a slot.

In larger fleets, like ECM itself, it's pretty much fine. In small gangs, it's more useful reprocessed.

I really do have to congratulate you on maintaining your longstanding tradition of brainless narrowmindedness and utter lack of reading comprehension or ability to make an argument.


Saying something is useless isn't going to help your case. The devs included it in game and I think they know precisely how effective or ineffective it is. It's there and it works as intended. If ECCM gives you the impression it's wasting a slot then don't use it.

If you feel it not effective enough equip a backup sensor array to complement it. If you have the ability pilot a t3 with dissolution sequencer.

Or die in a fireball. I don't care one way or the other.

In the same way shield and armor resistances can not fully protect from damage only mitigate it so follows ecm and eccm. Adapt.
TheBlueMonkey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-03-05 13:22:06 UTC
I like this idea but only if ECM gets a boost too.
That being a boost to range and chance to Jam.