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New dev blog: News from the fontlines

First post First post
Author
Circumstantial Evidence
#121 - 2011-09-21 18:17:53 UTC
Rees Noturana wrote:
This is Spreadsheets Online after all.

QFT

+1 for fixed-width option. EVE-mail needs tables Smile
Aineko Macx
#122 - 2011-09-21 19:17:55 UTC
CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
We could possibly release this to TQ shortly as an "experimental feature", allowing you to scale to 125%, 150% and so on. We would get your feedback on it, expose some defects and polish it further and then some patches later take off the experimental feature label.

That would be great! At 2560x1440 on a 27 inch screen things get really small...
Tho 25% increments seem rather lager, if it can't be freely settable I'd vote for 10% steps at most.
Tedric
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#123 - 2011-09-21 20:33:36 UTC
CCP Punkturis,

I like the blog and I have a request and a question.

1. When you make font comparisons, please make the choice of the background colour scheme the same! It is very difficult to make a valid comparison when one is basically black/transparent an the other is kind of grey/translucent.

Please can you change the blog to show both font samples with the same colour scheme? If i had to choose one, I would go with the black scheme.

2. It feels that the new font has been 'streched' vertically somewhat, it makes reading it uncomfortable... very odd. Has the vertical to horizontal aspect ratio been tinkered with or is it just me?

Tedric.

Lolmer
Merciless Reckoning
#124 - 2011-09-21 21:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lolmer
Alexandra Alt wrote:
Rees Noturana wrote:
CCP t0rfifrans wrote:

CarbonUI, our new UI engine, supports this. We have it running in a rough state on our development branch. However, there are some issues with some sliders and icons being offset, since their position was encoded in absolute values as opposed to relative values. Nothing we can't fix.

We could possibly release this to TQ shortly as an "experimental feature", allowing you to scale to 125%, 150% and so on. We would get your feedback on it, expose some defects and polish it further and then some patches later take off the experimental feature label. We could also wait, finish it completely and then release it, but that would mean we'd get feedback later and be more late reacting to your feedback.

In any case, this is partially implemented and on the roadmap to be released.


Release early and rough and get complaints or wait until finished and get complaints?

My vote is early and rough as experimental, get mass feedback, and patch it based on real world use.


I don't agree with that, most of the flak CCP has been getting is related to unfinished and unpolished feature release, this will be another one to add to it, and eventually forgotten when resource allocation changes resulting in a never to be polished feature like many we have right now.

I rather a lot more to endure some downsides of this particular feature right now and have the confidence the work will continue as it set on feature adding milestones instead of not important category of bug fixing which are 2 different 'categories' in a development house, and we know how terrible it get's to pick up a not important bug fix in the long run.


No, the crap CCP is getting is for releasing crappy code as finished and tested, or releasing code that breaks completely unrelated (at least according to the patch notes) functionality (such as cargo capacity breaking when nothing related to cargo/skills was "fixed".

For experimental features, make them optional and release early, release often. We play more on Tranquility than we do SiSi and will be more likely to use experimental features while we're toting around (disabling for serious PvP, of course ;)) and more likely to provide feedback. Obviously, more folks have the TQ client installed than SiSi so you'd have a larger test base, just make sure it is well noted when enabling the feature that it is EXPERIMENTAL.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#125 - 2011-09-21 21:37:07 UTC
Tedric wrote:
CCP Punkturis,

I like the blog and I have a request and a question.

1. When you make font comparisons, please make the choice of the background colour scheme the same! It is very difficult to make a valid comparison when one is basically black/transparent an the other is kind of grey/translucent.

Please can you change the blog to show both font samples with the same colour scheme? If i had to choose one, I would go with the black scheme.

2. It feels that the new font has been 'streched' vertically somewhat, it makes reading it uncomfortable... very odd. Has the vertical to horizontal aspect ratio been tinkered with or is it just me?

Tedric.



oops sorry! Those are screenshots from two different clients and I don't have the settings exactly the same.

The esc menu screenshot is taken last Friday, we already have a better looking version, as I said, this is still work in progress Big smile

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis

Koshiko Murakami
Sister's of Evil
#126 - 2011-09-21 21:53:21 UTC
CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
Krispy Dingo wrote:

When playing on an exceptionally large screen, like a hi-def television, the current font becomes unreadable; while it does appear that the new font will help with some of the readability, none of us are getting any younger and I can only cram my nose so close to my screen.

CarbonUI, our new UI engine, supports this. We have it running in a rough state on our development branch. However, there are some issues with some sliders and icons being offset, since their position was encoded in absolute values as opposed to relative values. Nothing we can't fix.

We could possibly release this to TQ shortly as an "experimental feature", allowing you to scale to 125%, 150% and so on. We would get your feedback on it, expose some defects and polish it further and then some patches later take off the experimental feature label. We could also wait, finish it completely and then release it, but that would mean we'd get feedback later and be more late reacting to your feedback.

In any case, this is partially implemented and on the roadmap to be released.


Much love for this. I'd really like to get back to playing EVE regularly, but I really just can't with the current font sizing issues I have.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#127 - 2011-09-21 23:08:56 UTC
Kandreath wrote:
Awwwww two great Dev blogs in a row! - I'm giddy! More of this stuff in development and as a blog.

+1


Why couldnt you have added an extra paragraph in the previous dev blog saying that you have a new font. You just seem to be stringing this out just a little bit too much.

tbh, i could care less about a new font. You know what, i can open microsoft word and there are feckin loads of fonts in there, its not special.

Words dont fly my spaceships!

channel your talents and efforts into something we can all enjoy, a spaceship game.

more devblogs featuring changes and fixes to spaceships please

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION

Whatisthis Idon'teven
Doomheim
#128 - 2011-09-22 05:50:22 UTC
I've never had an issue reading I and 1, my biggest issue was telling the difference between lowercase L and uppercase i and the letter O and zero (almost always an issue with most non-serif fonts though tbh). Thankfully this fixes those issues anyway so huzzah!

Well done on this much-needed change, and I'm looking forward to seeing it in-game at some point in the future. Cool
R3DSKULL
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2011-09-23 04:34:40 UTC
Ok this new font idea is all well and good but why are we addressing fonts when there are real bugs to sort out like..... IDK ships turning into cloaky harbingers, or blues removed from overview suddenly showing up as neutrals. Shall i go on? Oh yeah and those lovely errors that got swept under rug like t3 not being able to jump through black ops with cov ops anymore that was "supposed to be fixed"... not to be a troll but seems like everything is always directed at fixing useless **** rather than real issues. The next expansion should be called all the stuff we haven't fixed since 2005 that should be sorted. Example people still showing logged on in your address book who are logged off, this bug still makes me laugh all these years and still broken. Roll

Cmon CCP don't you get the simple fact quality over quantity will assure better numbers. Now i digress back to the font subject... Oh wait is this a bug being fixed for blind people??? Please sort out game play issues before wasting time on Fonts and pretty outfits. While i am happy ship spinning is back i find it amazing that the option to go from your standard hanger to your captains quarters wasn't there from day one... Seems like common sense. Im still waiting for modules that are out of balance to be fixed, idk like officer modules that are crappier than pirate mods, i.e caldari navy BCU vs Mizuro's Modified Piece of crap.. i can keep going on and on about real things that should be fixed but ill stop and turn it over to the flamers to flame away....
Lan Trobair
#130 - 2011-09-23 04:56:03 UTC
Thank you for this great news. There were times I had to get real close to the screen to read something. I hope the 9's and 8's will be a little more discernable too.

Any thought on whether these fonts would be made downloadable to use elsewhere?
Shamrock1
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2011-09-23 22:59:35 UTC
the new font looks kinda UGLY
noise
Space Defence Force
#132 - 2011-09-24 01:55:56 UTC
Lan Trobair wrote:
Thank you for this great news. There were times I had to get real close to the screen to read something. I hope the 9's and 8's will be a little more discernable too.

Any thought on whether these fonts would be made downloadable to use elsewhere?


Oooh. A font that I could download and use on my blog :D
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#133 - 2011-09-25 00:10:38 UTC
This is going to cause so much confusion in 0.0 when we realize the system we've been calling II5-BG for years turns out to really be 11S-86 Lol Long overdue though, can't wait to see it.
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2011-09-25 01:26:44 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
For the love of God, please when you go changing things like this, give us the option to keep the old setting.

I hate the look of that font compared to the old one, and don't understand why you can't just give us a checkbox/drop down selection in our options to choose the font we use.

It is subjective whether it is better or not; I generally don't have an issue differentiating between the 6G& etc to be honest and when you make changes like this you should consider those who like or are used to the old way of things.

Make subjective changes OPTIONAL.


This please. That new font looks horribad. I'd much rather use the old one if that one is the only other choice.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#135 - 2011-09-26 17:22:24 UTC
Ciar Meara wrote:
Myrhial Arkenath wrote:
As someone who wears contacts for Myopia (that's nearsightedness, or not being able to see well in the distance) I can't thank you enough. People who suffer from this will know that their contacts or glasses scale things down, making small text harder to read. It effectively means I have the font currently set to expanded, have have to bump it up twice from the default size to be able to read this. Have to admit, I play EVE on 1920*1200 because I enjoy my internet spaceships in all their splendor, but still. I hope with this font I don't have to tweak every conversation window or channel that I open and be able to just read everything without squinting. The screenshots are promising already.

PS: I agree it would be nice if we could control fonts more individually, and I like the idea of allowing us to choose from a series of fonts or to be able to use our own. Barring that, perhaps leave the old font available for a while and track usage statistics?


Dear god, you make wearing glasses sound like some kind of terrible affliction, really. Its good that there are fonts, but don't go crying about how wearing glasses makes your life so much worse. I wear glasses and contacts and I have never seen the world shrink before my very eyes.

I do like that eve now has a bigger better font, people will get used to it, change we can believe in!



Not trolling and perhaps I am wrong.. I am not an optomitrist or a medical doctor.

I wonder how old you are ?

My understanding is that there is a very distinct change in the eyes at 40,, usually not 38.. it comes on quickly at 39 or 40 and goes continues for a few years from there.

My understanding is that POOR vision at a younger age is different.. you needed classes but you still had the abilty to quickly change your focus.

When you get older the problem isn't just your over all vision stregnth but the abilty to jump your eyes around and bring new things into focus and at different distances. Adjusting from 17 inches away to 26 inches (I've got mutiple monitors but even on one 24 inch there is a difference beetwen the distance of my face to the center of the screen and my face to the top right corner of more than a few inches takes time and glasses are designed to correct best at a certain distance....

Well anyway.. I hope that makes sense to you. If you had good vision up to 40 and needed subsequently worse glasses for a few years afterwords and find your glasses help you just as well at various differences, perhaps we do have different eyes.

.

Alejan Gerakh
Scourge Wolf Syndicate
#136 - 2011-09-27 16:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Alejan Gerakh
Skippermonkey wrote:
Why couldnt you have added an extra paragraph in the previous dev blog saying that you have a new font. You just seem to be stringing this out just a little bit too much.

tbh, i could care less about a new font. You know what, i can open microsoft word and there are feckin loads of fonts in there, its not special.

You could care less... so you aren't quite at the lower limit of your ability to care, then? And that's great you can open a word processing program and find fonts. I'm sure you can make great use of that skill in a desk job someday.

Skippermonkey wrote:
Words dont fly my spaceships!

Actually, for most players, the words 'Self Destruct' and 'Warp to 0m' are important for flying or not flying their spaceships. Being able to tell system names and other things apart is very much important to 'flying spaceships', since most of the controls in this game are through text-labeled context menus or tables. The infamous label of Spreadsheets Online, after all.

I guess you're just finding reasons to be whiny, really, so I should just ignore you... but it was fun poking your sentences.

Diomedes Calypso wrote:
Ciar Meara wrote:
Myrhial Arkenath wrote:
As someone who wears contacts for Myopia (that's nearsightedness, or not being able to see well in the distance) I can't thank you enough. People who suffer from this will know that their contacts or glasses scale things down, making small text harder to read. It effectively means I have the font currently set to expanded, have have to bump it up twice from the default size to be able to read this. Have to admit, I play EVE on 1920*1200 because I enjoy my internet spaceships in all their splendor, but still. I hope with this font I don't have to tweak every conversation window or channel that I open and be able to just read everything without squinting. The screenshots are promising already.

PS: I agree it would be nice if we could control fonts more individually, and I like the idea of allowing us to choose from a series of fonts or to be able to use our own. Barring that, perhaps leave the old font available for a while and track usage statistics?
Dear god, you make wearing glasses sound like some kind of terrible affliction, really. Its good that there are fonts, but don't go crying about how wearing glasses makes your life so much worse. I wear glasses and contacts and I have never seen the world shrink before my very eyes.

I do like that eve now has a bigger better font, people will get used to it, change we can believe in!
Not trolling and perhaps I am wrong.. I am not an optomitrist or a medical doctor.

I wonder how old you are ?

My understanding is that there is a very distinct change in the eyes at 40,, usually not 38.. it comes on quickly at 39 or 40 and goes continues for a few years from there.

My understanding is that POOR vision at a younger age is different.. you needed classes but you still had the abilty to quickly change your focus.

When you get older the problem isn't just your over all vision stregnth but the abilty to jump your eyes around and bring new things into focus and at different distances. Adjusting from 17 inches away to 26 inches (I've got mutiple monitors but even on one 24 inch there is a difference beetwen the distance of my face to the center of the screen and my face to the top right corner of more than a few inches takes time and glasses are designed to correct best at a certain distance....

Well anyway.. I hope that makes sense to you. If you had good vision up to 40 and needed subsequently worse glasses for a few years afterwords and find your glasses help you just as well at various differences, perhaps we do have different eyes.

Just to comment on the topic of shortsightedness, I actually have a pretty terrible prescription (without my glasses, I can barely see clearly 6-to-12 inches in front of my nose), but I've not had any major issues with reading EVE Online's font, even on a 17" laptop screen that displays at 1920x1200. Just saying.

"Sounds like a bad case of pikal envy, if you ask me."

"They called the Enterprise a garbage scow! Sir."

Chaotic Good - The ends justify blowing $#!t up.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#137 - 2011-09-28 19:27:23 UTC
Gee another person with glasses not reading carefully and figuring sense they can read fine there isn't an issue.

Short sidedness is not the same thing as what people get when they get older.

when you are younger and need glasses you have a genetically wrong focal point based on eye shape.

Vision loss due to age is because a portion of your eye hardens making it difficult to focus quickly and basically at all close up.


The experience of a 25 year old using glasses and doing just fine and an 45 year old using prescription glasses and struggling aren't the same.

There is a diferent underlying problem.

Hyperopia vs Presbyopia

if you want to "get" a sense of it, think of using a zoom lens on a camera with auto focus.. .. the lens correct for the distance but you still need to focu.. the auto focus slowly brings the image to focus.. thats what we experience.

Loooking up from a book or looking from one edge of the screen to another .. or to another monitor meens that i need to wait a bit before it sharpens up... and for older people

... and you will ALL experience this as you age

making improvements to font legibilty (and ideally as discussed by others, scaling size) is a very CORE , not cosmetic part of the game.

I 've been able to play fine.. but its a bother, a strain, and an uncessasary one.

And, I'm in the pong generation... a large portion of people who played when they're young are going to keep at it.. older players will be an increasing segment of the customer base as time goes on.

.

Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers
#138 - 2011-09-30 20:40:46 UTC
Quote:
Now we've simply licensed the Arial Unicode font and provide that with the EVE client, using it to render any characters not available in the EVE font.


After looking at it on SiSi, I'm not a big fan of the new font. Given you have Arial licensed and in the client, I wonder if you could do a screenshot of it rendering using that font throughout? Arial may still have some of the ambiguity problems, but it's a very readable font.

--

SkinSin
Cushions of Doom
#139 - 2011-09-30 21:14:46 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
it's good to see all the positive feedback here:)

Really?
How about: CCP spends years trying to redevelop the wheel and ends up with one with a flat side to it because you can't adjust the size of the font in most places in the the game, which ends up being unreadably small on large monitors.

Or how about: Spends years re-developing the wheel, when there are plenty of FREE fonts out there that are easy to read that they could just have used.

Or how about, why not spend the time allowing the user to choose the font to use.

Still, you've got a job out of it, which is to be commended really, but frankly shows that CCP is willing to fritter away money when they don't really need to.

Sorry to be a party-pooper, but the new font is largely useless to those of us that use a large monitor if you can't change the size of the text on many parts of the UI.
SkinSin
Cushions of Doom
#140 - 2011-09-30 21:16:31 UTC
Quote:
Now we've simply licensed the Arial Unicode font and provide that with the EVE client, using it to render any characters not available in the EVE font.

/facepalm.
If you've got it licensed and in the client, why not use it for everything?
And allow resizing the font...