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Supercap Reballancing
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Yumi Sagara
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#301 - 2012-03-01 23:12:53 UTC
ILikeMarkets wrote:
Glarealot wrote:
At this point, Supercaps are the new battleships: http://i.imgur.com/CY6x4.jpg


Wow... thats just... wow.


Supercaps Online :)
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#302 - 2012-03-01 23:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Yumi Sagara wrote:
ILikeMarkets wrote:
Glarealot wrote:
At this point, Supercaps are the new battleships: http://i.imgur.com/CY6x4.jpg


Wow... thats just... wow.


Supercaps Online :)


Indeed. Which should drive the point home to anyone with any sense at all. There is no way back to 2005. Sorry guys, that train left the station several years ago. Supers are here to stay. What CCP needs to do is develop the game based on that thruth.

Any hope of balancing this rests with the will to expand the capital battlefield, more options on how to use capitals, counter capitals and handle capitals, not less. If not, supers will stay in the hands that currently have them, and it will be impossible/very very difficult to counter by anybody else.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#303 - 2012-03-01 23:54:55 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Yumi Sagara wrote:
ILikeMarkets wrote:
Glarealot wrote:
At this point, Supercaps are the new battleships: http://i.imgur.com/CY6x4.jpg


Wow... thats just... wow.


Supercaps Online :)


Indeed. Which should drive the point home to anyone with any sense at all. There is no way back to 2005. Sorry guys, that train left the station several years ago. Supers are here to stay. What CCP needs to do is develop the game based on that thruth.

Any hope of balancing this rests with the will to expand the capital battlefield, more options on how to use capitals, counter capitals and handle capitals, not less. If not, supers will stay in the hands that currently have them, and it will be impossible/very very difficult to counter by anybody else.


It will be impossible to fight the old guard of 0.0 in capital ships online. Its impossible right now,hence why CCP are going after the one thing causing it rather than inventing a load of new new capitals which will cause further balance issues and result in the vast bulk of ships being compleatly useless along with the bulk of players who do not fly capitals.
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#304 - 2012-03-02 00:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
baltec1 wrote:

It will be impossible to fight the old guard of 0.0 in capital ships online. Its impossible right now,hence why CCP are going after the one thing causing it rather than inventing a load of new new capitals which will cause further balance issues and result in the vast bulk of ships being compleatly useless along with the bulk of players who do not fly capitals.


Dont be shy Baltec. just say it. Death to all supercaps. Amirite?

I'm not gonna argue this point with you. Firsty because I dont include you among people with any sense at all, but more importantly, because I think people reading forums are quite fed up with both of us allready.

Tia.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#305 - 2012-03-02 00:20:13 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:




I'm not gonna argue this point with you.


Only because you can't.
Delici Feelgood
Doomheim
#306 - 2012-03-02 00:24:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Delici Feelgood
baltec1 wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:




I'm not gonna argue this point with you.


Only because you can't.


He's afraid his "winky" might shrink into none existance if he admits that Goons have to compensate for their lack of skills with using a meta win stratergy and have to ask CCP to nerfbat their foes.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#307 - 2012-03-02 00:26:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Lanasak wrote:
oh and let me show you the very expensive and large ship that people use to get supercapitals into a system

[Kestrel, New Setup 1]
Cynosural Field Generator I

Nice one! Interesting fit, seems to lack something...
Delici Feelgood wrote:
He's afraid his "winky" might shrink into none existance if he admits that Goons have to compensate for their lack of skills with using a meta win stratergy and have to ask CCP to nerfbat their foes.

Haven't you heard, there was a PL spai that leaked the fact we are producing tons of titans. I have no idea if it's true but why would he lie?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#308 - 2012-03-02 00:29:48 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lanasak wrote:
oh and let me show you the very expensive and large ship that people use to get supercapitals into a system

[Kestrel, New Setup 1]
Cynosural Field Generator I

Nice one! Interesting fit, seems to lack something...


A civ gun. Because if you're gonna die you might as well got on one mailBlink
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#309 - 2012-03-02 00:31:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lanasak wrote:
oh and let me show you the very expensive and large ship that people use to get supercapitals into a system

[Kestrel, New Setup 1]
Cynosural Field Generator I

Nice one! Interesting fit, seems to lack something...

A civ gun. Because if you're gonna die you might as well got on one mailBlink

Ah right, get that one bullet to plink the shields of an Avatar (just as it LAZ0RS you to hell) so you can get on its killmail. Perfect!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#310 - 2012-03-02 00:35:26 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lanasak wrote:
oh and let me show you the very expensive and large ship that people use to get supercapitals into a system

[Kestrel, New Setup 1]
Cynosural Field Generator I

Nice one! Interesting fit, seems to lack something...

A civ gun. Because if you're gonna die you might as well got on one mailBlink

Ah right, get that one bullet to plink the shields of an Avatar (just as it LAZ0RS you to hell) so you can get on its killmail. Perfect!
My God, think of his ISK efficiency tho.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Berke Negri
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#311 - 2012-03-02 05:10:29 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Haven't you heard, there was a PL spai that leaked the fact we are producing tons of titans. I have no idea if it's true but why would he lie?

we're only doing it because we know once we start using them regularly they are sure to be nerfed then
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#312 - 2012-03-02 10:56:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Yumi Sagara wrote:
ILikeMarkets wrote:
Glarealot wrote:
At this point, Supercaps are the new battleships: http://i.imgur.com/CY6x4.jpg


Wow... thats just... wow.


Supercaps Online :)


Indeed. Which should drive the point home to anyone with any sense at all. There is no way back to 2005. Sorry guys, that train left the station several years ago. Supers are here to stay. What CCP needs to do is develop the game based on that thruth.

Any hope of balancing this rests with the will to expand the capital battlefield, more options on how to use capitals, counter capitals and handle capitals, not less. If not, supers will stay in the hands that currently have them, and it will be impossible/very very difficult to counter by anybody else.


It will be impossible to fight the old guard of 0.0 in capital ships online. Its impossible right now,hence why CCP are going after the one thing causing it rather than inventing a load of new new capitals which will cause further balance issues and result in the vast bulk of ships being compleatly useless along with the bulk of players who do not fly capitals.

It is also impossible to fight the goon blob right now.

I agree that supercaps and especially titans need balancing. However, turning them into giant portable stargates is not the solution.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#313 - 2012-03-02 11:02:29 UTC
John Maynard Keynes wrote:

It is also impossible to fight the goon blob right now.

I agree that supercaps and especially titans need balancing. However, turning them into giant portable stargates is not the solution.



Subcap blobs are not invincible and never have been. There has been much bigger fleets in the past which have been beaten.
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#314 - 2012-03-02 11:13:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
John Maynard Keynes wrote:

It is also impossible to fight the goon blob right now.

I agree that supercaps and especially titans need balancing. However, turning them into giant portable stargates is not the solution.



Subcap blobs are not invincible and never have been. There has been much bigger fleets in the past which have been beaten.


How? With bigger blobs? Or with a titan blob?

Oh and you seem to worry a lot about small alliances. Could you sir please tell us how a small alliance could successfufully take some CFC systems?

And BTW, supercap blobs are not invincible as well as it was proven recently.

Some hints:
- Jihad Dread Spam
- an Supercap fleet withough proper subcap support is easily beaten by a subcap blob
- with other supercaps if you have the balls to bring them

P.S: The idea with ewar frigs is not bad though as long as a single ewar frigs is not able to jam a titan infinitely (something a falcon can do with a subcap). Which means you would need like 10 ewar frigs to jam a titan effectively.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#315 - 2012-03-02 11:23:00 UTC
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
John Maynard Keynes wrote:

It is also impossible to fight the goon blob right now.

I agree that supercaps and especially titans need balancing. However, turning them into giant portable stargates is not the solution.



Subcap blobs are not invincible and never have been. There has been much bigger fleets in the past which have been beaten.


How? With bigger blobs? Or with a titan blob?

Oh and you seem to worry a lot about small alliances. Could you sir please tell us how a small alliance could successfufully take some CFC systems?

And BTW, supercap blobs are not invincible as well as it was proven recently.

Some hints:
- Jihad Dread Spam
- an Supercap fleet withough proper subcap support is easily beaten by a subcap blob
- with other supercaps if you have the balls to bring them

P.S: The idea with ewar frigs is not bad though as long as a single ewar frigs is not able to jam a titan infinitely (something a falcon can do with a subcap). Which means you would need like 10 ewar frigs to jam a titan effectively.


Please point out this recent titan welp.

Also;

-welpdreads do not work, it has been tried.
-AAA caught a titan fleet that had no support. AAA had to abandon the fight because they couldn't scratch them dispite outnumbering the titans 4 to 1 while the titans were picking them off.
-the side with the most titans wins, it is pointless to try when outnumbered.

If you knew your eve history you would know that smaller alliances used to beat big ones right up untill the supercap buffs.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#316 - 2012-03-02 13:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
And BTW, supercap blobs are not invincible as well as it was proven recently.

Some hints:
- Jihad Dread Spam
- an Supercap fleet withough proper subcap support is easily beaten by a subcap blob
- with other supercaps if you have the balls to bring them

P.S: The idea with ewar frigs is not bad though as long as a single ewar frigs is not able to jam a titan infinitely (something a falcon can do with a subcap). Which means you would need like 10 ewar frigs to jam a titan effectively.


That's because supercarriers are not terribly effective at dealing with subcaps, especially sub-BS. They can hold a maximum of 35 fighters, without the ability to use other drones. Crucible balanced them - the days of a Nyx blob throwing hundreds of drones at everything are over. They are still highly effective against capitals, sov structures and stations, as they should be.

Now, dread spam might seem like a viable tactic on paper, but in reality, these "highly insurable welpable ships" take a long time to build in large numbers, and even if you source them from lowsec, 200 dreads will not be easy to replace every time you leeroy them into a titan blob. Besides, a good portion of them would be waxed by doomsdays upon jump-in, and fighterbombers would take care of the rest - if you're really suggesting dropping a blob of the ships that supers are designed to quickly kill to counter titans, I don't know what to say.

They might kill a titan or two, but that would be at the expense of dozens of dreads, and it's a stunt that is logistically impossible to pull off more than once in a blue moon.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
zealot shakree
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#317 - 2012-03-02 20:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: zealot shakree
The problem with tracking titans is not how high you can get the tracking, or the sig of the guns or how badly they beat supercaptials in actual tranquility conditions (shut up with your eft garbage if you think its just a simple matter of getting under titan guns).

The problem is that you can commit as many zero tanked tracking titans as you want to a battle and take little risk of losing them regardless of how outmatch your captial and subcapital support is.

The reason for this is fitting in space. Now I don't have a problem with the fitting in space mechanic but why in the hell should someone be able to commit a paper thin titan to a battle and blap the **** out of subcaps. Then perhaps it gets scanned and primaried by a superior subcapital and suicide dread squad all that titan pilot has to do is refit (just after he has aggressed, and currently being aggressed by say a 200 subcaps and a handful of dreads).

Why are capitals allowed to refit when they are aggroed and being aggroed? First of all it doesn't make sense to be able to refit modules on a ship that is currently being melted.

Second of all lets see how many tracking titans even get fielded with the threat of possibly losing them to subcapitals/dreads since they wont be refit tank as soon as they are threatened.

Add to the mechanics that you cannot refit when you are shooting or being shot, problem solved.
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#318 - 2012-03-05 00:16:48 UTC
Andski wrote:
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
And BTW, supercap blobs are not invincible as well as it was proven recently.

Some hints:
- Jihad Dread Spam
- an Supercap fleet withough proper subcap support is easily beaten by a subcap blob
- with other supercaps if you have the balls to bring them

P.S: The idea with ewar frigs is not bad though as long as a single ewar frigs is not able to jam a titan infinitely (something a falcon can do with a subcap). Which means you would need like 10 ewar frigs to jam a titan effectively.


That's because supercarriers are not terribly effective at dealing with subcaps, especially sub-BS. They can hold a maximum of 35 fighters, without the ability to use other drones. Crucible balanced them - the days of a Nyx blob throwing hundreds of drones at everything are over. They are still highly effective against capitals, sov structures and stations, as they should be.


I am not against a dread buff. The only reason why moms are still being fielded in fights is to provide reps to titans.

Nerf Titan-tracking and supercaps will become effectively useless in fights and numbers >>> all
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#319 - 2012-03-11 17:34:43 UTC
Wow 16 pages...


Heres my proposal
Make dreads easier to build. Lower the material requirements so they can be easier to welp fleet to kill the titan blob.

Now they can be leroyed into battles to welp kill a titan. Only problem with this is that theres usually 50 titans on the field like Raiden. so effectively does. This means that 50 will be insta-doomsdayed before they can even get a lock on the titan they are welping.

Here's how you fix that. Have these massive titan/nyx blobs bump off each other. Its hard to keep all your uber resist capitals repped up and killing welp dreads when they are spread over 2 grids because they keep bouncing off each other with that 16km sig (Ragnarok before rigs).

http://i.imgur.com/CY6x4.jpg (Credit where its due I found this further up in the thread)

The fact that you can fit over 58 titans and their support into one grid is insane. Titans (last I checked) have such a big sig radius means that you should not be able to pile this many together. If they gave each other bumps so they aren't all piled in on each other (which is quite unrealistic, I dont know about you but I dont think I can fit 20 aircraft carriers into the space taken up by 2 without crushing them down) they would be so far apart from each other supercarriers wouldn't be able to tear apart welpdreads because they would be far outside their fighterbomber range, and welp dreads would be able to tear them apart and titan blobing would end.

Alternatively,

bringing back the AOE doomsday. Nobody will blob titans if they know that they will end up with friendly fire because of their doomsdays, giving welp dreads more time to do their job.

And if that titan is alone and doesn't need to worry about friendly fire, he cant doomsday all the dreadnoughts away and dies because he lacked support.

Comments?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#320 - 2012-03-11 17:45:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Alternatively,

bringing back the AOE doomsday. Nobody will blob titans if they know that they will end up with friendly fire because of their doomsdays, giving welp dreads more time to do their job.

And if that titan is alone and doesn't need to worry about friendly fire, he cant doomsday all the dreadnoughts away and dies because he lacked support.

Comments?


Terrible idea. Titans have more hotpoints than dreadnoughts meaning that if you have enough titans [how are you going to split a single titan away from a fleet of them unless is a stupid titan pilot?] you can doomsday enough dreadnoughts without destroying your fleet of titans. The AOE doomsday was removed for a reason although it was mainly the effect of destroying subcap fleets that was its undoing.

The only way to rebalance titans is either a] to remove them from EvE Online, b] give all capitals & supercapitals sub-systems so their doomsay weapons/jumpdrives/drone bays etc can be blown up or c] create more anti-capital support like mobile cyno inhibitors as a ship or module so no one in the immediate grid can light a cyno. Or something like that.