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New dev blog: Team Security - Banning Bad Guys and also Bad Guys

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CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#41 - 2012-03-01 18:02:55 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Sreegs
jonnykefka wrote:
Sreegsalicious

I too would like a little more data on the recidivism stats. I mean, only 3% go on to further warnings mean that only 3% are stupid enough to get CAUGHT botting again on the same accounts. How many of those with first warnings unsub? How many moved chars around (prior to this latest tweak)? In short, is it that they are actually no longer botting, or that they're hiding it better?

Also, if you really want to teach the lesson, nuke their wallet totals and assets with the first offense. Not entirely, just as much as you can reliably trace to automated activities. They're botting for isk, threaten the isk on the first strike and you alter the risk/benefit equation of botting at ALL by quite a bit. It might dissuade some people from botting in the first place.


As I alluded to in the blog there's things in the works regarding reclaiming illegally gained assets but it's really not mature enough at this stage to comment on aside to reassure you that a discussion's being had and it's pretty much 100% likely that something will be done.

Whether they're no longer actually botting isn't something I can get into without getting specific about how the detections work. Suffice to say that from a purely analytical perspective, I'd be pretty happy as a player if all that was occurring was bad behavior being limited. That's NOT the entire scope, but it is the partial reason for the three strikes rule. Behavior has to change.

I have the unsub numbers but I want to work with current data. It's not high and I'll show it at fanfest which is just a couple of weeks away. I don't recall it off the top of my head. I am old, have a terrible memory and a fever atm.

:edit: I'll also note that those stats will now change as the data that I do have relates only to cases where characters could be transferred. I expect the number to go down.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Aquila Draco
#42 - 2012-03-01 18:04:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Aquila Draco
]
Quote:
BUT WAIT, THERE IS EVEN MORE! From now on, and this current wave is included, characters who receive a warning such as this will have the characters locked to the account. This means that once you've received a warning for botting your character transfer privileges have been revoked in perpetuity. This is to prevent people trying to circumvent the rules by recycling accounts. Yes we know people pointed out this could happen last time around and if you'll remember we said "We'll keep an eye on it and if it becomes a problem we'll deal with it". Here is us dealing with it. We'll probably have to come up with some form of timing solution for the future, but as it stands today it's forever. If you care about your dudes don't to bad things.


Arrow It MUST stay forever. MUSTAttentionAttentionAttention
Don't ruin what you have done with some timers that will undo impact of locking.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#43 - 2012-03-01 18:04:48 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
OK I got a question: "1000 to 2000 bans": Say one player has 5 accounts, 2 of which were botted, and you ban them. I know you an all 5 accounts, but how do you count that in your 1000 to 2000 total? Is that counted as

One ban because you issued a ban against one player,
Two bans because you banned 2 botting accounts,
Five bans because you banned all five accounts?


The number is based on accounts. When one account is banned and tagged for botting all of that player's accounts go with it. So if you only bot on 2 of your accounts but you have 5 all 5 are getting tagged and banned.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#44 - 2012-03-01 18:04:51 UTC
Give some numbers, like nuber of bans per for each of those strikes ???!!!

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#45 - 2012-03-01 18:05:40 UTC
Aquila Draco wrote:
]
Quote:
BUT WAIT, THERE IS EVEN MORE! From now on, and this current wave is included, characters who receive a warning such as this will have the characters locked to the account. This means that once you've received a warning for botting your character transfer privileges have been revoked in perpetuity. This is to prevent people trying to circumvent the rules by recycling accounts. Yes we know people pointed out this could happen last time around and if you'll remember we said "We'll keep an eye on it and if it becomes a problem we'll deal with it". Here is us dealing with it. We'll probably have to come up with some form of timing solution for the future, but as it stands today it's forever. If you care about your dudes don't to bad things.


Arrow It MUST stay forever. MUSTAttentionAttentionAttention
Don't ruin what you have done with some timers that will undo the lock.


There's no discussion about changing it at this time. I'm just leaving us an out because I like to talk like I'm in court and someone's going to read this back to me in the future. It happens sometimes on the Internet.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#46 - 2012-03-01 18:06:04 UTC
Daedra Blue wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
Make it zero botting tolerance FFS! first strike, permaban!

That is a LOSE-LOSE scenario.

Because although illegal we still use the stuff they bot, and ccp still gets accounts payment. Turning them into legal players is a WIN-WIN.


The saying goes - You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

My personal opinion is that obviously hardcore botters will continue to search out ways to do so regardless of how many strikes or temporary bans they get. I hold no hope for them being reformed and I fervently applaud CCP's additional steps to lock down both the account and all chars on them once discovered.

Now, at the same time I don't see people who bot in completely contrasted black or white. I'm sure that there are a lot of those who have the single dinky highsec mining alt-bot running while they're at work. Botting, sure, but not as egregious as the more invested botters who have any number of accounts concurrently engaged in botting 23/7 in high-ISK situations... these latter types are by far going to be the most unrepentant ones and deserve no additional chances simply because they wouldn't change, they'd just look for another way around the system.

/T
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#47 - 2012-03-01 18:07:43 UTC
Fictional Hero wrote:
That is a lot of words and you didnt say anything that hasnt been said before. I thought the purpose of the Dev Blogs was to tell us stuff, instead you say things like "charts will be at fanfest". It makes it seem that you did this as a fanfest publicity stunt, which you said wasnt.

tl;dr

Lock thread due to lack of content.

or

gas thread ban op.



There's plenty in the blog that hasn't been said before sir as there's some things being done that haven't before. The reason you need to wait for Fanfest for charts and such is any existing data would be old (You'd get that from reading the blog) and I'd like to show current data which takes time to actually exist.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
GM Grave
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2012-03-01 18:07:54 UTC
<3 ESTF

The Love & Order GM Team© have been thoroughly researching the Mayan calendar and writings of Nostradamus. Thus far we foresee that its going to be a bad year for the bad guys...

Lead GM Grave | Senior Project Lead | CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2012-03-01 18:09:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Elanor Vega
Sirius Cassiopeiae wrote:
Quote:
BUT WAIT, THERE IS EVEN MORE! From now on, and this current wave is included, characters who receive a warning such as this will have the characters locked to the account. This means that once you've received a warning for botting your character transfer privileges have been revoked in perpetuity. This is to prevent people trying to circumvent the rules by recycling accounts. Yes we know people pointed out this could happen last time around and if you'll remember we said "We'll keep an eye on it and if it becomes a problem we'll deal with it". Here is us dealing with it. We'll probably have to come up with some form of timing solution for the future, but as it stands today it's forever. If you care about your dudes don't to bad things.


THNX A LOT Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile


and,

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE MAKE THAT PERMANENT!!!!!

If you put it on timer botters will make a little more accs and when time pass out sell the old one that was locked and buy new one for reserve. And you will have that bad circle of recycling chars started again, only circles will be a little bigger (more chars in the same circle).
You see that we were right last time and you didn't listen, listen us this time and keep locked chars permanently locked to that account.



Underlined -> WTF.

This guy have a point.
If you put timer on locking its like you didn't do this at all.
Lock must be permanent.



Edit:

CCP Sreegs wrote:
Aquila Draco wrote:
]
Quote:
BUT WAIT, THERE IS EVEN MORE! From now on, and this current wave is included, characters who receive a warning such as this will have the characters locked to the account. This means that once you've received a warning for botting your character transfer privileges have been revoked in perpetuity. This is to prevent people trying to circumvent the rules by recycling accounts. Yes we know people pointed out this could happen last time around and if you'll remember we said "We'll keep an eye on it and if it becomes a problem we'll deal with it". Here is us dealing with it. We'll probably have to come up with some form of timing solution for the future, but as it stands today it's forever. If you care about your dudes don't to bad things.


Arrow It MUST stay forever. MUSTAttentionAttentionAttention
Don't ruin what you have done with some timers that will undo the lock.


There's no discussion about changing it at this time. I'm just leaving us an out because I like to talk like I'm in court and someone's going to read this back to me in the future. It happens sometimes on the Internet.


Didn't see this... but only that you know that even thinking about not permanent lock is a bad idea.
Shandir
EVE University
Ivy League
#50 - 2012-03-01 18:09:43 UTC
@Sreegs - what is the current policy with regard to ISK / Assets on a proven botter's multiple accounts? Do you /dev/null all their ISK, or some of it, or none? Do you asset strip them?
Do you take ISK/Assets from the botter's non-botting accounts, and do you do this only for ISK you can prove comes from a botting account?

I personally think that when a botter has multiple accounts, you should strip the botting account dry of all ISK (possibly even leave them negative if they transferred any out you can't reclaim) and any items they could potentially sell, as well as stripping any ISK that was transferred via any method between accounts/characters.
Probably should be more lenient to single-account botters, as they are more likely to just up and leave, but still try to strip any botting related ISK and don't be light on the estimation.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-03-01 18:10:51 UTC
Could you tell us how much isk there is in the game in total and pr character, and how much minerals there is in total in the game (in refinable state and non-refinable state (supers etc)), and how this has progressed the past 5 years?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#52 - 2012-03-01 18:11:13 UTC
Chiggy W wrote:
Awesome work, and I'm extremely glad that you've prevented the mongs from transfering charaters. I want to pick up on one point tho

Quote:

"Three strikes is too weak" - Here we disagree but there's a reason why. I've shown charts before and I'll have a set at Fanfest that shows that we're effective at changing behavior by using these bans (with a caveat). What I mean is that a fraction of people actually get a second warning and the amount of people in all time who have ever hit a third was something ridiculous like 3%. There's some new things though related to this that I'm going to be a good egg and share with you though in a separate paragraph.


Have you guys considered the fact that most accounts only get dinged once because they just start up a new account once they get caught? I mean you've got to be a real mouthbreather to continue botting on an account that has been dinged once, so I think the metric that 1 temp ban is enough may be slightly flawed. Ultimately I guess it doesn't matter because even if perma-banned, the hardcore botters/RMT'ers are just going to start another account anyway, but I am certainly interested to know if you guys have considered this point, and how many accounts have their chars sold then go inactive after the first warning.

Anyway, keep up the good fight, I love to see this scum removed from game, and please catch them as they inevitably come scurrying back like the cockroaches they are. Cool

Great work guys!


We didn't overlook that, but the solution to that is larger than the current discussion as working around that would lead to changes in design or how accounts are handled. We're moving into a world where that becomes less and less of a possibility but that can't happen overnight and the new team's existed for about a month or something. We need to progress in steps and if all I could deliver out of the door was The Ultimate Solution we'd never get anywhere.

Point being I think that yes, we do consider that fact and yes we'd like to make it less and less of an option.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Largo Coronet
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-03-01 18:11:36 UTC
CCP Sreegs best Sreegs

This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.

Someday, this signature may save my life.
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#54 - 2012-03-01 18:12:27 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
******* Sreegs

Shipping from Amazon.co.jp to Europe costs a lot, ne?

Why I moved, much cheaper manga~~~

Nyan
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#55 - 2012-03-01 18:13:46 UTC
Shandir wrote:
@Sreegs - what is the current policy with regard to ISK / Assets on a proven botter's multiple accounts? Do you /dev/null all their ISK, or some of it, or none? Do you asset strip them?
Do you take ISK/Assets from the botter's non-botting accounts, and do you do this only for ISK you can prove comes from a botting account?

I personally think that when a botter has multiple accounts, you should strip the botting account dry of all ISK (possibly even leave them negative if they transferred any out you can't reclaim) and any items they could potentially sell, as well as stripping any ISK that was transferred via any method between accounts/characters.
Probably should be more lenient to single-account botters, as they are more likely to just up and leave, but still try to strip any botting related ISK and don't be light on the estimation.


Today, as in like right now, assets aren't touched but I don't see it staying that way.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2012-03-01 18:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Quote:
From now on, and this current wave is included, characters who receive a warning such as this will have the characters locked to the account. This means that once you've received a warning for botting your character transfer privileges have been revoked in perpetuity.

:sadface: (had toyed with the idea of getting a cheap alt on the character bazaar once the temp bans run out) but +1 nevertheless.

this is a big improvement.

.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#57 - 2012-03-01 18:14:54 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Could you tell us how much isk there is in the game in total and pr character, and how much minerals there is in total in the game (in refinable state and non-refinable state (supers etc)), and how this has progressed the past 5 years?


CCP Diagoras has probably produced stats like that. I'll ask around tomorrow. Don't have it immediately available to me.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2012-03-01 18:15:28 UTC
CEO of my heart.


Any stats kept as to bans resulting from people doing the right-click, "report bot" option? I recall a fair number of pods attempting to ice mine (well, until they were sent back to their medical station...)
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-03-01 18:20:47 UTC
Good job. Still would love for you to release some information on where, alliance, corp and or names.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-03-01 18:21:12 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Could you tell us how much isk there is in the game in total and pr character, and how much minerals there is in total in the game (in refinable state and non-refinable state (supers etc)), and how this has progressed the past 5 years?


CCP Diagoras has probably produced stats like that. I'll ask around tomorrow. Don't have it immediately available to me.

It would be awesome to see just how much monetary inflation there's been, it feels like it's been a tonne the last 3 or so years.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat