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[CSM] The Independent Voter's Guide to the CSM 7 Elections

First post
Author
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#61 - 2012-03-01 09:27:06 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:


Any other choice will be a waste of your vote.



It makes me sad to here this from you Sad

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Miri'ori
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#62 - 2012-03-01 10:14:54 UTC
I want to give Faction Warfer a voice.

I want to give Hisec/lowsec people a face.

My vote for Hans Jagherblitzen.




live long and prosper
Ned Black
Driders
#63 - 2012-03-01 11:34:49 UTC
Nobody who is part of a thing will ever be impartial nor independent.

I find it interresting that you tell people to use one vote on Hans and the rest on one of the serious contenders because any other vote would be wasted on him... I kind of disagree here.... completely.

From what I have seen the current CSMs are starting eyeball Hans more and more because he is becoming dangerously popular among the high/low/fw crowd. And that bunch is a fairly big crowd but traditionally very split up in warring factions... but if they come together behind him I would say that Hans have a serious chance of not only getting into the CSM but getting right to the top 7.

Where I put my votes is yet to be decided, but Hans surely have perked my interrest even if Im not in the ls/fw crowd.
Pallidum Treponema
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#64 - 2012-03-01 11:45:38 UTC
I think the summary is a sound one, and although I may not agree with all the choices, Trebor is a good man, and has always struck me as level headed and as objective as you get.
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#65 - 2012-03-01 11:56:20 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:


Any other choice will be a waste of your vote.



It makes me sad to here this from you Sad


Yes it is sad. Non the less i think it is true.
The bloc candidates will get there votes. Just some number experiments:
Say you have 6k voters, 2k of them go for goons, another 2k support 3 other bloc candidates. the last part of 2k voters has 20 candidates that have great ideas and good intentions to run for a seat.

Now think there are just 4 Seats, how big is the chance that the 2k spread over 20 candidates will reach a higher mark than 2k spread over 3? It MAY occur but the odds are against it.

I respect everyone who makes efforts for this great game whether he runs for CSM or not. But as non bloc candidates you should really try to group your self together to rally behind one front runner. The guy (or girl) who finally gets the seat does not need to be the one with the best ideas, but the one who can work with others and communicate the ideas of the community to ccp.

Once the votes are over and the results are out, everyone favoring non-bloc candidates should keep up their good work and support those who made it into the council.

@Trebor: Good guide. It is hart to not step on someones toe and you might have hit some but overall this is a good point to start at. Hopefully the average csm interested player will realize that he still needs to do his own choice and look into the candidates he favors.
Drackarn
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#66 - 2012-03-01 11:58:03 UTC
Good post.

I'll be voting with all of my toons for Hans Jagerblitzen.

CSM 6 has done a great job. But the minutes appear to reveal they know nothing about faction war. And why should they, I know nothing about null-sec.

CSM 7 needs a delegate who knows low-sec, hi-sec and faction war. Hans is that man.

http://sandciderandspaceships.blogspot.com/

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-03-01 12:17:30 UTC
Raivi wrote:
Your assertion that all nullsec candidates are of equally low value to all independent voters is not backed up by any evidence, as all of your specific arguments about them are aimed only at Mittens.

I singled out The Mittani because of all the bloc candidates, he is making by far the strongest effort to attract votes from outside his natural voting bloc. And also, the focus of the document is about how non-bloc voters can maximize the value of their vote. Since all the bloc-candidates are going to get elected, and most of them get elected into the top 7, votes for them provide less value to an independent voter than votes for candidates with a proven track record of representing the interests of all the players.

Quote:
Your statements that several candidates will easily win (implying that they aren't worth votes) while not mentioning that you are also virtually guaranteed a spot is obviously disingenuous.

While I think it highly likely that I will be re-elected, getting into the 7 is another story. The competition this year is much stiffer, and turnout will be higher. I don't believe any non-bloc candidate is a lock for the 7.

Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:

Any other choice will be a waste of your vote.

It makes me sad to here this from you Sad

I am sorry you feel this way. Unfortunately, the fact that the election system has not been changed to reduce wasted votes (as in, votes for candidates who did not get elected), and the reduction in the number of Iceland seats to 7, has resulted in a situation where independent voters have to make cruel choices in order to balance bloc power. I blogged about this back in January.

I have been pushing CCP to reform the election mechanic since right after the last election, but they did not want to introduce too many changes this time around. I would like to see an open discussion with the community about this topic, culminating in changes for the next election.

Ideally, voters should be able to cast their ballot for their preferred candidate without worrying that their vote will be wasted. But in the current election, this is sadly not the case.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2012-03-01 13:07:13 UTC
It would be a nice guide if it was void of personal agenda leaking from every paragraph.You are a true politician Trebor. And i dont mean it in a nice way.

And i strongly disagree that votes for popular candidates that have bloc support are wasted votes. There is no such thing as wasted votes. Not in RL, not in EVE. Players should vote for who they like and who they believe in, nothing else.
And certainly not voting for their second/third person on the like list, just because they think that their primary candidate has enough votes already. Thats bullshit that can have a very big cost and harsh consequences.

Cheers.

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]

MakkAnzy
Solstice Inc.
#69 - 2012-03-01 13:21:49 UTC

I support Seleeneee as he knows this game the best! He has always worked hard to make it a better game. IE Wormholes!

Please support Seleene as we need him back on CSM!Lol
Zixie Draco
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2012-03-01 13:40:52 UTC


Good read...but you left out the longshot.

Would you like a kitten?

Destru Kaneda
Arzad Police Department
#71 - 2012-03-01 14:48:43 UTC
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#72 - 2012-03-01 16:55:27 UTC
Surat Do'Cameran wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Wow, and now we are down to personal attacks.

I am also a two time elected to the CSM candidate and have 8 years committed to Eve. I've run a mining corp for over six years and an alliance for 5 years. I've experienced all aspects of Eve and proved in the past I am committed to the Eve community. I have a background in software engineering (42 years) and direct games industry experience.

To claim voting for me is a wasted vote and support for me is "sympathy" is both wrong and insulting.

So miner's don't accept that your voices are unimportant and vour support is just sympathy.

And to everyone else reading this nonsense "guide" ask yourself how Trebor made your life in Eve better recently. I expect you'll be struggling to find an answer.

Issler Dainze
The Miner's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate



Sit down, shut up and go back to mining trit to turn into ships that the rest of us can go pew in. You were an ALT for most of your CSM time until a "main" stepped down. You raised no issues within the CSM in your time and are quoted in t he CSM minutes as being unable to figure out T3 production business models ad stating that T3 ship were of "dubious" value. You were out of touch and ignorant then and are so now.


As for the issues that Trebor has pushed, I guess POS fuel changes and UI improvements are useless to a carebear like yourself?

Go away and stop filling the forum drives with your drivel. Stop campaigning against candidates with actual ability and splitting the vote.


I served a full term first time elected and half the second term so the majority of my time I was an acting CSM member and not an alt.

POS fuel changes came up long before Trebor made it into the CSM. We discussed it with CCP when I was in CSM 2. As have been UI changes. Every CSM since the first asked for UI improvements, so I can take as much claim for those two things as he can.

Issler Dainze
The Miner's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate

Issler
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-03-01 19:43:33 UTC
Chanina wrote:
Hopefully the average csm interested player will realize that he still needs to do his own choice and look into the candidates he favors.

The more time people spend evaluating the candidates and coming to informed decisions, the happier I will be.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Ntrails
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#74 - 2012-03-01 20:14:19 UTC

You realise that the current voting system also 'wastes' bloc voters votes? Every vote in excess of the minimum required for election could be better spent on electing an alternative candidate who supports my outlook. So whilst the Mittani will get my votes, in the case of an overwhelming landslide I have to deal with the fact that other candidates who I would/could have supported, but did not to secure my first choice, might miss out.


So if your first choice does not get elected, your vote is meaningless, but more votes are wasted on 'winning more' than are wasted by 'not elected'

I don't like AV in real life, and I don't see it offers anything of value here either
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-03-01 21:01:29 UTC
Red Templar wrote:
There is no such thing as wasted votes. Not in RL, not in EVE.

This is demonstrably incorrect. For example, every vote The Mittani gets in excess of the number needed for him to become chairman (his stated goal) is a wasted vote; it could have been used to elect other candidates with similar views.

In the last election, The Mittani received 1552 overvotes. These would have been enough to put another candidate onto the CSM. Ntrails pointed this out while I was composing this reply; great minds think alike.

Similarly, about 30% of the votes were cast for candidates who did not get elected. If those had been transferred in some way, the council would have been more representative of the wishes of the voters.

Quote:
Players should vote for who they like and who they believe in, nothing else.

The fact that such a strategy amplifies the voting power of organized blocs should be obvious to everyone. The sad fact of the matter is that the current voting system forces people to vote tactically.

I would also point out that I am on record as being in favor of a system that does not require tactical voting -- that permits people to vote for who they believe in. This is despite the fact that it may well reduce my vote total, since under such a system, I would not be the beneficiary of tactical votes.

Ntrails wrote:
I don't like AV in real life, and I don't see it offers anything of value here either

Noticed your post after I'd finished composing the above. Obviously, reasonable people can disagree about which voting system is best, which is why I believe that after these elections, there needs to be a vigorous public debate that involves not just CCP and CSM, but the broader community as well.

While no voting system is perfect (it's provably impossible), I firmly believe that there are election systems that can deliver much more equitable results while retaining the current simple "vote for one candidate" system.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Victor Stillwater
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-03-02 01:37:20 UTC
Good day,

I came across this post through a twitter announcement, and while I do think you mean well, this isn't really much of a voter's guide so much as it is a guide to gaming the CSM voting system so that specific people get to go to CCP-land and offer their input into the systems that define EVE.

The very nature of a voter's guide is that is an impartial listing of all candidates for particular positions, as well as their platforms and possibly their qualifications for being voted into office.

I will echo the sentiments of some folks here who have mentioned that you have explained little in terms of who each candidate is, what values each candidate represents, and why they should be voted into the CSM.

Now, I take no issue with your disclaimer because it is honest, but the title is misleading as I came here looking for information to help me make better choices with the vote I have, a vote which is supposed to be used for the person I see fit and not for the person who is most likely to win through a mathematical analysis of how many votes it takes to get a seat on a plane to Iceland.

I do not say these words lightly, and I do not mean to disrespect the work you have put on here. That said, I do wish you the best of luck in the elections, and to whatever travels you may make through New Eden.

Thank you for your time.

Butt-kicking for goodness! - Minsc, Baldur's Gate Series

Feel free to read my game-related writings at http://www.gamesandgeekery.com

None ofthe Above
#77 - 2012-03-02 02:01:24 UTC
Victor Stillwater wrote:
Good day,

I came across this post through a twitter announcement, and while I do think you mean well, this isn't really much of a voter's guide so much as it is a guide to gaming the CSM voting system so that specific people get to go to CCP-land and offer their input into the systems that define EVE.

The very nature of a voter's guide is that is an impartial listing of all candidates for particular positions, as well as their platforms and possibly their qualifications for being voted into office.

I will echo the sentiments of some folks here who have mentioned that you have explained little in terms of who each candidate is, what values each candidate represents, and why they should be voted into the CSM.

Now, I take no issue with your disclaimer because it is honest, but the title is misleading as I came here looking for information to help me make better choices with the vote I have, a vote which is supposed to be used for the person I see fit and not for the person who is most likely to win through a mathematical analysis of how many votes it takes to get a seat on a plane to Iceland.

I do not say these words lightly, and I do not mean to disrespect the work you have put on here. That said, I do wish you the best of luck in the elections, and to whatever travels you may make through New Eden.

Thank you for your time.


You know, he called this a guide to the elections... not the candidates. I think he delivered a pretty cogent look at the elections from an independent voter's point of view.

I don't see why you all expect him to duplicate Dierdra Vaal's work on http://match.eve-csm.com/

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=73650&find=unread

^ Go there for what you are asking for (when its ready).

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Skrypt
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-03-02 02:55:28 UTC
I'm proud of my boy Seleene and all the work he did on CSM6. I know a vote for him this time around certainly won't be wasted.

Vote for Seleene!
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2012-03-02 06:52:59 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
LOL

A no-name mercifully placed me in Long Shots list while asking to vote for himself.

Dude, wanna accept my bet that I'll score more votes than you? Say, 100 mil. Is that ok for you? I'm perfectly fine with higher bets as well, I'm just not sure wheather you'd risk your money.

edit: oh, originally it was a 'comic relief' list. Nice! Blink


Hey, I'll bet 500M.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
Siberian Squads
#80 - 2012-03-02 07:05:07 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
LOL

A no-name mercifully placed me in Long Shots list while asking to vote for himself.

Dude, wanna accept my bet that I'll score more votes than you? Say, 100 mil. Is that ok for you? I'm perfectly fine with higher bets as well, I'm just not sure wheather you'd risk your money.

edit: oh, originally it was a 'comic relief' list. Nice! Blink


Hey, I'll bet 500M.

Bet accepted.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.