These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

the dumbing down of names to bring in new blood?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2012-01-27 18:43:34 UTC
There is better ways to aid those who think that comparing items is currently too difficult and items are too difficult to search.
Renaming is just easy way to get around doing anything too complex, which would actually require some coding.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2012-01-27 20:21:35 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
There is better ways to aid those who think that comparing items is currently too difficult and items are too difficult to search.
Renaming is just easy way to get around doing anything too complex, which would actually require some coding.


The less coding they have to do, the better. Code is tricky and dangerous stuff, especially in a beastie the size of Eve.

Now I admit that there was a strange sense of pride in knowing the meta levels of a few classes of modules based on their name alone. But when you DON'T memorise that stuff, poking around in the info tab is quite the pain.
And hardwirings are just bloody terrible, most of them offer no clue in their name as to what they do. Thank god EFT sorts them by their purpose, and not their implant slot.

In another game they might have solved this issue with mouseover tooltips that summarise what each item does, but just renaming them is an easier solution.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#183 - 2012-01-27 21:11:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
Takseen wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
There is better ways to aid those who think that comparing items is currently too difficult and items are too difficult to search.
Renaming is just easy way to get around doing anything too complex, which would actually require some coding.


The less coding they have to do, the better. Code is tricky and dangerous stuff, especially in a beastie the size of Eve.

Now I admit that there was a strange sense of pride in knowing the meta levels of a few classes of modules based on their name alone. But when you DON'T memorise that stuff, poking around in the info tab is quite the pain.
And hardwirings are just bloody terrible, most of them offer no clue in their name as to what they do. Thank god EFT sorts them by their purpose, and not their implant slot.

In another game they might have solved this issue with mouseover tooltips that summarise what each item does, but just renaming them is an easier solution.


I would:

- add shortcut button to neocom for compare tool
- add some default selectable item groups to compare tool like different kind of ammo, charges and missiles for easy viewing.
- add right click function "show all variations (in compare tool)" to items with multiple meta levels and variations.
- add right click function "show other items of the group (in compare tool)" to (all?) items. Would show same items than in bottom level market group. For example other minmatar frigates or small projectile ammos.
- add own search function and hideable item browser to compare tool. Should support also drag and drop like atm.
- add filters to market to show only items related to kinetic, thermal, em or explosive (similiar than the button which u can press to "show only available") *special thanks to "Alpheias" for the original idea.

Dumping stuff down is really bad solution. Giving easier access to study and learn the complex will be much better solution in long term. Variety in item names has history and it gives so much more lifetime to the game.

Also you shouldn't forget how much people have invested time for 3rd party spreadsheets, programs and websites, which all use the standard eve item database. If you change the name from your code, hundreds are forced to do the same. Some may get this done by updating some database from standard dump, but many will do this manually. I'm sure they feel great passion towards individuals who did the name change pretty much just because it seemed like good idea, but really wasn't and if it was, it absolutely wasn't necessary and important one. There is million more important things to do than **** people off with the least obvious ones.

Honestly this thing and the neocom, without any trolling now, has made me seriously think about future of CCP as a company, which will never quite make it, because it is too difficult for them to put the customer demands in front of their own agenda. Developers should be proud of things what they have developed to meet the demand of the software, Not about things they have developed to boost their own ego and show how good they are developing stuff they think everyone should like.

We did have pretty much talks about communications after incarna launch. There was more discussion in forums for a while, but then it vanished. The awesome model where stuff is made in total blackout and thrown to sisi (in which point it will pretty much end to tranq as is) has returned and all real discussion what takes place happens always way too late - after plenty of resources, work and tears have already been wasted for the result which makes no one happy.

You really should start writing those devblogs in a point when there is some new plan which has been approved as a "go", but before the plans are entirely locked down and can still be altered to better meet the demand of the community. You will surely get tens of good and valid reasonable comments which will open many doors to improve the original idea and reveal many of the possible flaws before they have even been coded.

Something to think about. Maybe.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2012-02-29 19:41:32 UTC
Bumping as is topic of the day again.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
JamesCLK
#185 - 2012-02-29 20:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: JamesCLK
I can haz search tags?
From another quasi-similar thread:
JamesCLK wrote:
This is why we need search tags.

That way modules can be named whatever the frack CCP wants and we'll still find all launchers when we search for 'launcher'.


To clarify, tags would be an array of words (strings/chars) that is separate from the name and which are defined by relevancy.
Eg. the tag 'Propulsion' would be anything under the propulsion module tree; hardener is all shield and armor hardeners; explosive is anything that either deals or protects from explosive, etc...

By searching for multiple tags, you can narrow down the search.
Eg:
'armour hardener explosive meta3' would return just the meta 3 explosive armour hardener.
'armour hardener meta3' would return all meta 3 armour hardeners.
The order of the tags and capitilization in the search wouldn't matter.
Also allows you to define search queries based on terms such as meta, tech, gun size (eg. Large/Medium/Small) or weapon type (hybrid, projectile, laser, launcher).

-- -.-- / -.-. .-.. --- -. . / .. ... / - --- --- / . -..- .--. . -. ... .. ...- . / - --- / ..- -. -.. --- -.-. -.- / ... - --- .--. / .--. .-.. . .- ... . / ... . -. -.. / .... . .-.. .--. / ... - --- .--.
trelema
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2012-02-29 20:30:08 UTC
Well implants have always been named in the most frustratingly opaque way possible, but does the rest really require change? I particularly dislike the launcher change. What's next? Lasers? "small laser", "medium laser", "quite big laser", "really really big laser"? If you remove the character and atmosphere of Eve you will remove a large proportion of the playerbase also.

How about instead of renaming everything you keep making the irrelevant stuff in the game actually worth being there (I'm looking at you Steel Plates II)? See what a good idea that was with the Retribution? - only took like 5 years or so...
Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#187 - 2012-02-29 20:37:21 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
like ya shoulda done with the fonts *grumble*



Yeah dumbing down so it's not as hard on the eyes. I guess you don't want older people like me who need reading glasses playing either. It might not be as cool but it makes a big difference being able to read things easily.

I actually agree with most of the the name changes - it is just unnecessary complexity - if I need an MWD or an AB I know which size then I can easily pick the one I need instead of trying to remember which one Y-T8 or cold-arc gas thrusters are (and in fact if they are MWDs or ABs which I still couldn't tell you after all this time)

Tell you what though if you like this kind of complexity - why not just label the modules in hex from 0x000000 to 0xFFFFFF randomly :-

0x0000A1C - N-type thermic harder
0x0000A1D - Heavy Missile Launcher II

if calling them something sensible is "dumbing down" then by the same token this would be making the game deeper and more challenging.
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#188 - 2012-02-29 22:03:25 UTC
The more effort you put into something the more you value it.

CCP, you keep dumbing down EVE for the sake of making it easier to learn for new players. But you forget that at the same time you also make EVE easier to drop. If I don't put any effort cause it's so easy then I don't fell like I loose anything by dropping the game.

Personally I value all the learning it goes with EVE.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#189 - 2012-02-29 22:06:37 UTC
Midnight Hope wrote:
The more effort you put into something the more you value it.

CCP, you keep dumbing down EVE for the sake of making it easier to learn for new players. But you forget that at the same time you also make EVE easier to drop. If I don't put any effort cause it's so easy then I don't fell like I loose anything by dropping the game.

Personally I value all the learning it goes with EVE.



Be honest, you love the sound of mining lasers and the shiny II icon in the upper left corner of your Exhumer far too much to leave.

I would not tell you if it were not so.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#190 - 2012-02-29 22:06:51 UTC
I guess the better argument is they're taking the easy route out of this mess by not doing the extra little bit of more work.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#191 - 2012-02-29 22:08:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Any 13 old playing something stupid like WoW will get some epic axe called "Slayer Of The Ages". Not "Experimental Axe".

Why 13 olds playing WoW can manage to grasp this insane complexity Roll, but smart EvE players are not meant to?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#192 - 2012-02-29 22:11:56 UTC
Once again CCP knows best and will ram it through no matter how many people express their displeasure.
Raastul
Dopey Swordfish
#193 - 2012-02-29 22:13:20 UTC
Midnight Hope wrote:
The more effort you put into something the more you value it.

CCP, you keep dumbing down EVE for the sake of making it easier to learn for new players. But you forget that at the same time you also make EVE easier to drop. If I don't put any effort cause it's so easy then I don't fell like I loose anything by dropping the game.

Personally I value all the learning it goes with EVE.



Since when is a more logical naming policy = dumbing down?

I really like this change. Having to go look at the attributes tab to see if its a meta whatever item is just annoying, nothing more nothing less. There isn't anything to learn about that.
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#194 - 2012-02-29 22:26:15 UTC
The problem is it isn't a very logical change, the new names sound stupid, and it's really not fixing a problem--it's changing things in a semi-coherent way because...people are dumb. And when that gets pointed out it's said "it's difficult for newbies to understand, so we have to change it!" Well, it's difficult for newbies to understand a lot of things in this game, and it will still be difficult for them even if you rename things. There is no improvement with this renaming, and Eve takes another step towards becoming Spreadsheets Online.

Also, I see that you removed the facebook post about it after everyone point out how stupid it was.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2012-02-29 22:27:46 UTC
Raastul wrote:
Midnight Hope wrote:
The more effort you put into something the more you value it.

CCP, you keep dumbing down EVE for the sake of making it easier to learn for new players. But you forget that at the same time you also make EVE easier to drop. If I don't put any effort cause it's so easy then I don't fell like I loose anything by dropping the game.

Personally I value all the learning it goes with EVE.



Since when is a more logical naming policy = dumbing down?

I really like this change. Having to go look at the attributes tab to see if its a meta whatever item is just annoying, nothing more nothing less. There isn't anything to learn about that.

That is not the item names fault. That is the fault of the tools available in the game.

At the moment only places where you can easily see the meta level is hangar if you have been informed to enable the meta column to make it visible for sorting. That too is disabled by default.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#196 - 2012-02-29 22:39:43 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Bumping as is topic of the day again.


That's just lame.

Mr Epeen Cool
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#197 - 2012-02-29 22:56:45 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
I can only guess that CCP is "simplifying" things in order to attract more folks.

The only problem is they grew every year for 6 years, until they stopped giving us stuff for FIS.

Simplifying stuff makes the game worse, not better.

Just keep doing what you did with the last patch, and you'll see the subscriber base grow.


I can see this going bad places....

life-bars instead of hull/armor/shields... that'd be simpler too....

When you mine asteroids, instead of ore going into your hull, isk drops into your wallet.... that's ****-tons simpler...

Fitting ships is too hard, so get rid of all modules and have each ship hard-coded with turrets/launchers, ecm, and tanking abilities.

If you do that, then you can name ships properly

Caldari Long Range ECM battleship I
Minmatar sacrificial tackling frigate II
ORE Ice Mining Vessell II - Mackinaw
Nomad -- Minmatar Freighter I

so much simpler. So much better. Right?

Just change the names back, kinda like the turret icons. like ya shoulda done with the fonts *grumble*

wrong answer is wrong.

it's not going to bring in paying customers. Unless this is all to prepare for the FREE TO PLAY CROWD, and if that's the case, then bravo, you've done exactly what you need to do.


So, tell me something. Without looking at the EVElopedia (and without opening the Info window), tell me why I would want a 'Noble ZET' implant over a 'Gnome KYA'. What slot do they go in? Are they for shields, armor, weapons? How much of a boost do they give to whatever it is they boost?

The new naming system is a one-glance system telling me all of that, so I don't have to open each and every implant on the market just to see how much of an increase I'd give my skills, or to make sure I'm not spending three million ISK on an implant that I've already got.

Saves time, saves money, saves annoyance.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#198 - 2012-02-29 23:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Astrid Stjerna wrote:

So, tell me something. Without looking at the EVElopedia (and without opening the Info window), tell me why I would want a 'Noble ZET' implant over a 'Gnome KYA'. What slot do they go in? Are they for shields, armor, weapons? How much of a boost do they give to whatever it is they boost?

The new naming system is a one-glance system telling me all of that, so I don't have to open each and every implant on the market just to see how much of an increase I'd give my skills, or to make sure I'm not spending three million ISK on an implant that I've already got.

Saves time, saves money, saves annoyance.


Well i heard that death saves everything. And is finite.

All you ever wanted in one package, pre-order your suicide now at the phone 999-111-999-123.
If you order now you get an discount for an coffin. Cool

Anyway names are names.. .I will still check the attributes of modules i want, fitting req. / and others..
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2012-02-29 23:10:42 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Ris Dnalor wrote:
I can only guess that CCP is "simplifying" things in order to attract more folks.

The only problem is they grew every year for 6 years, until they stopped giving us stuff for FIS.

Simplifying stuff makes the game worse, not better.

Just keep doing what you did with the last patch, and you'll see the subscriber base grow.


I can see this going bad places....

life-bars instead of hull/armor/shields... that'd be simpler too....

When you mine asteroids, instead of ore going into your hull, isk drops into your wallet.... that's ****-tons simpler...

Fitting ships is too hard, so get rid of all modules and have each ship hard-coded with turrets/launchers, ecm, and tanking abilities.

If you do that, then you can name ships properly

Caldari Long Range ECM battleship I
Minmatar sacrificial tackling frigate II
ORE Ice Mining Vessell II - Mackinaw
Nomad -- Minmatar Freighter I

so much simpler. So much better. Right?

Just change the names back, kinda like the turret icons. like ya shoulda done with the fonts *grumble*

wrong answer is wrong.

it's not going to bring in paying customers. Unless this is all to prepare for the FREE TO PLAY CROWD, and if that's the case, then bravo, you've done exactly what you need to do.


So, tell me something. Without looking at the EVElopedia (and without opening the Info window), tell me why I would want a 'Noble ZET' implant over a 'Gnome KYA'. What slot do they go in? Are they for shields, armor, weapons? How much of a boost do they give to whatever it is they boost?

The new naming system is a one-glance system telling me all of that, so I don't have to open each and every implant on the market just to see how much of an increase I'd give my skills, or to make sure I'm not spending three million ISK on an implant that I've already got.

Saves time, saves money, saves annoyance.

How about for example:
- item mouse over tips if held some key down
- right click menu: "show similar in compare tool"
- compare tool preset: "shield implants" which shows all shield implants. Compare tool icon to neocom.

It is not item names fault that game lacks tools.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#200 - 2012-02-29 23:42:40 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:

How about for example:
- item mouse over tips if held some key down
- right click menu: "show similar in compare tool"
- compare tool preset: "shield implants" which shows all shield implants. Compare tool icon to neocom.

It is not item names fault that game lacks tools.


I understand your point, but you don't seem to be seeing mine.

I'll give you an example from my own experience.

I was working under contract several years ago to test a system that was designed to make a computer easier to use for someone with (limited mobility/visual impairment/hearing impairment). Basically, you could make the screen bigger, you could have the computer verbalize what's on the screen, and so forth.

One of the options that was included in the software package we recieved was to enable a 'visual dynamic keyboard'.

Care to tell me what that might be? It's 'visual', so...it looks like a keyboard. It's 'dynamic', so...I guess it changes over time, or something....and it's a keyboard.

Instead of calling it something simple and logical, like 'on-screen keyboard' (which is exactly what it was), all of our reference material used a much more confusing and obscure term. It sounded jargon-ish and overly 'clinical', scaring away the people that may actually need it.

It's the same with the current implant names. Hell, I can quote nearly verbatim from movies and books that I haven't seen in six years, but I'll be darned if I can tell you what a Squire implant will do, or a Gnome KYA, or a Noble ZET without looking it up in the Info screen.

I really mean this with the greatest of respect (I seriously do), but your proposed solution adds three steps (hold the button down, click the 'compare' tool, select a preset from a menu) when only one (change the names to make them less obscure) is needed to solve the problem, and takes one-third the time to install.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....