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Is force projection to easy in EVE?
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PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-02-29 06:12:27 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Sendo Jarix wrote:


No one uses Jump Bridges in the way you seem to think they do, if you are fighting that far away you deploy in a staging system at the region. Using Jump Bridge to move between those distances is a complete waste of time as there are far more efficient ways to move, not to mention it's common practice for an Alliance to deploy people to camp JB networks to delay reinforcements.



You say one thing, and than contradict yourself immediately in the next sentence. If JB's werent used for projecting power, say by bringing in reinforcements, why would it be "common practice for an Alliance to deploy people to camp JB networks to delay reinforcements?."

You can project power for defense as well as offense, in fact the former is much worse than the latter. Your own words illustrate how its common knowledge that JB's allow for the defensive projection of power.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-02-29 07:42:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
Asuri Kinnes wrote:

Wormholes are fun, and more dynamic than 0.0 (at least in my humble opinion...) because of their very limits.



Im pretty sure that null would become more interesting too if local channel would use the same delayed mode as wormholes.

ontopic: Yes, I guess the current amount of titans and titan bridges were never taken into account in CCP's plans.
But I dont think its the crux of the perceived problem.

ps. I was in NC before its fall.

Johnny Marzetti wrote:

Hi. People use jump freighters to import from empire, not jump bridges. Or if you really do know of someone using jump bridges and regular freighters, you have yourself a sweet sweet ganking opportunity and you should go for it.

People don't make very much of their own stuff in nullsec because industry in nullsec is broken due to the bizarre limit of one outpost per system and racially segregated outposts that don't let you combine a decent factory with a decent refinery. This means you have to freight minerals through very dangerous space to produce things locally, at which point you might as well just use jump freighters to import from empire and save yourself a couple steps, or you'll get eaten alive by the person who does. I'm saying this as someone who would love to make more things in nullsec.

Jump bridges make travel less tedious. They're actually pretty limited otherwise.

This issue about the limitations of the outposts is very interesting. We should make sure CCP realizes it.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-02-29 07:44:44 UTC
It's always fun to see people who have obviously never even seen a jump bridge complain about how overpowered they are.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-02-29 08:00:20 UTC
Power projection would be curbed a little with spool up timers, also it would help counter the hotdrop. Power projection is too easy at the moment and should be addressed by CCP as an urgent issue. Capitals should be powerful but hard to move around.

Removing local, and Spool up Timers on Jump Drives should do a little to curb power projection.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Sendo Jarix
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-02-29 08:03:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sendo Jarix
PotatoOverdose wrote:


You say one thing, and than contradict yourself immediately in the next sentence. If JB's werent used for projecting power, say by bringing in reinforcements, why would it be "common practice for an Alliance to deploy people to camp JB networks to delay reinforcements?."


To catch stupid people (there are a lot of these), in most cases they only take one JB to get to the Titan which will bridge them to the staging system or the next Titan. So removing JB's would only mean they take a few more minutes having to take 3-4 extra jumps.

Quote:

You can project power for defense as well as offense, in fact the former is much worse than the latter. Your own words illustrate how its common knowledge that JB's allow for the defensive projection of power.


And so it should otherwise there is very little point to actually holding space, it sounds like you just want to rock up to some system put a TCU down and call it a day without being opposed at all.
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#46 - 2012-02-29 08:07:06 UTC
Sendo Jarix wrote:
Esan Vartesa wrote:

News flash: that's the point.

If you can't be bothered to fly out 50 jumps away and gather a fleet to defend empty space, then maybe that space should be left to other players interested in null sec. You guys are the ones who are always trashing high-sec bears for not moving to null. Have you ever considered that maybe your ability to quickly pop in and out of empty null areas anytime some new players try to set up camp out there is part of the problem?

The rest of us are starting to figure that out.


This has nothing to do with Jump Bridges, this is all done with Titan bridging. A nerf or removal of JB's is not going to change this situation at all, as someone said earlier PL are incredibly fast at moving across nullsec and they don't own any sov to have any JB's.

90% of JB traffic is people moving around their own region, not force projection.



This is true. The only time JBs are really used in pvp is in defence of your region to out manoeuver the enemy, which should be one of the benefits of owning space. The broken force projection part is basically Titan bridges.

We use Titan bridges all the time so this isnt a 'we have no titans' whine. Titan bridging is way too powerful as force projection and should be changed, how? No idea. Possibly make it so the Titan doesnt 'open' a bridge but actually bridges every fleet member in range with it, itself included, in one go? This would cause great risk and titans would die for sure. But really, I dont know. Any solution that is thought up will cause as many tears as smiles, so its a hard argument, pretty much all within the whole 'supercaps need to be changed' thread.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-02-29 08:08:14 UTC
Sendo Jarix wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

[quote]
You can project power for defense as well as offense, in fact the former is much worse than the latter. Your own words illustrate how its common knowledge that JB's allow for the defensive projection of power.


And so it should otherwise there is very little point to actually holding space, it sounds like you just want to rock up to some system put a TCU down and call it a day without being opposed at all.


I second this. JB network is one of the few reasons to actually OWN space. And I agree that thats how it should be.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-02-29 09:48:49 UTC
Stealth whine thread to "Nerf Titans NAO!" because the HaveNots want what the HaveIts got.

To bad the HaveNots had all the time in the world to prevent those Titans being built, but as those SupCarriers were kicking ass since their buff the HaveNots got all anti-risk adverse to lossing more ships.

So massive number of titans were being built to counter SupCarriers and fight next to those SupCarrier because they replaced fleets of Battleships.

So now you got massive numbers of Caps replacing all those Battleships, but you still have pilots attempting to bring Knives (Battleships) to a Gun fight (vs Cap Ships).

And even after ROUND ONE! FIGHT! of anti-cap ships nerfs, Cap pilots adapt to popping smaller ships brought against them by idiots who still cannot adapt to bring better ships. They still want ROUND 2!!! FINISH HIM!!! nerfs to cap ships.

Yet, its all working as intended unintentionally. All I see are I Can't CCP! Why? *sniff!* WHYYYY?!?!?!? Can't I win! and "Help me CCP! Your my only hope! Beat those ******* into the ground!" because one side can't adapt and wants EVE to become easy mode.

I would rather see more anti-cap ship idea of new ships (see below) instead of "Haha CCP, I still want to stick around with my rifter and hurricane fleets backed by Drakes....so make sure those big ships can't hit me at all and I don't have to bring cap ships of my own!" to win everytime. Anything that gets the players that are bringing battleships to a cap fight to bring more anti-cap weapons instead of massive numbers of things already failing. Tired of the passive participation whining, get the players to actively particpate in the game for better ships to bring down titans.

-Cruisers shooting Siege Missiles,
-Heavy Strike Frigs (not stealth bombers) Shooting a few Siege Missiles then need to reload the cargo bay,
- Dreads tanking a few DD and shooting Mini-DD's for 250k at half the fire rate of normal DD because now those titans are stuck on grid for 10 minutes but the enemy brought 500 dreads,
-Black Ops with CAPITAL EWAR mods reducing the effectiveness of jump bridges on titans and disrupting gun tracking
Mussaschi
No Wise Guy's
#49 - 2012-02-29 10:53:03 UTC
Hm, personally I would add something like radiation. Every jump (titan or jump bridge) would cause a increased level of radiation, that start causing structural damage to the jumping ships after the first jump.
After 3 jumps this ship damage should be quite severe. People wanting to project faster than can decide, either to wait for radiation level dropping, repair their ships between jumps or start with a serious disadvantage.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2012-02-29 13:43:27 UTC
You people seem to have the idea that jump bridges magically send you wherever you want to go or something. They only send you to the other end of the jump bridge which has to be within 5 light years and can be scouted out and camped (and yes, they often are). You have to fuel them with liquid ozone which is consumed in proportion to the mass of the ship jumping through so it's not like you get to send a hundred battleships through for free.

Don't like jump bridges? Get off your whiny pubbie butts and park stealth bombers in range of them for easy kills. Sheesh.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-02-29 13:50:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Marzetti
Mussaschi wrote:
Hm, personally I would add something like radiation. Every jump (titan or jump bridge) would cause a increased level of radiation, that start causing structural damage to the jumping ships after the first jump.
After 3 jumps this ship damage should be quite severe. People wanting to project faster than can decide, either to wait for radiation level dropping, repair their ships between jumps or start with a serious disadvantage.


As much as I'd love to take a suggestion from someone whose entire corporation doesn't know the difference between possessive and plural, there's already a price to pay for using jump bridges and it's called liquid ozone. I guess you could say that there's already "something like radiation" in the form of people who, unlike you, have gotten off their lazy behinds and scouted out their enemies' jump bridge networks so they could camp them, thus inflicting damage on the way to or from the battle, but you probably don't want to hear that taking and holding sov requires actually doing work.

Edit: Also most large fleets fly with support so repair would not be a big deal, except for the sort of small gangs that everyone says they want to see instead of blobs. So basically your idea would make it even more worthwhile to blob.
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-02-29 14:03:19 UTC
Is force projection to easy in EVE?
YES!!!!!!
Calfis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-02-29 15:33:40 UTC
Mutnin wrote:

Yes and that is the way it should be, because eventually you would get tired of flying those 30 to 50 jumps every time some new local group decided to take a stab at taking away your systems that you seem to want to hold for what ever reason that are 30 to 50 jumps away.


Apparently you don't know us, we will keep coming back if only just for the pew.
Commander Spurty
#54 - 2012-02-29 15:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Spurty
Why do people "force project"?

It's rarely about cutting out sov for themselves.

It's done daily just to cut 45 mins of a roam

Sadly, that 45 mins is not shaved off the return so self destruct is often the sanest (even if it drives your alliance mates crazy) return journey.

Now, why does force projection need vilifying? You demand even more stagnationation in 0.0?

Yours sincerely bored to death after 10 jumps in empty hostile space.

Bring back super high ways to clusters of active pvpers please. 5 jumps and action. Boom force projection is not the bad guy. Lame travel mechanics is.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Banechild
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#55 - 2012-02-29 16:17:44 UTC
What we need to get things interesting would be allowing cyno jammers to allow access for your own cynos and those you are willing to let in (blues) and while we're at it allow them to be built from sov 1.

This would force large alliances field conventional fleets before capitals to form a beach head for an invasion and it would also pretty much demand a large presence near where ever you goody moons happen to be.
This of c. does lead to a problem of "defender has huge cap fleet and you don't" until you nuke that jammer, maybe give it less hit points to make it more vulnerable ?
Second problem would be that everyone would have to have a cyno jammer in about every system which would be like returning to old days of Sov warfare when supers or even capitals were rare.

And I'm not sure if it would still be enough for small entities to live with sov space in null but it would make kicking them out something you would actually have to commit.
Atm. you might have a support fleet of say 300 BS + several titans & supers + regular caps but this change would mean that BS's would have to duke it out first, giving even a poor (isk wise) defender a chance, because currently there's no point in trying anything against big guys when your systems are ran flat faster then you can yell red spike in local and they can come back any time they like.

This of c. doesn't change the fact that large alliances have more people in fleets then some small alliances have characters in total even with alts included.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#56 - 2012-02-29 16:48:28 UTC
Banechild wrote:
What we need to get things interesting would be allowing cyno jammers to allow access for your own cynos and those you are willing to let in (blues) and while we're at it allow them to be built from sov 1

Although this would make some people that love titans cry, right now there are some interesting battles while the timer for sov ticks down.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-02-29 16:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Tired of traveling seven regions through system after system after system of blues to find some action?

Well good sir, you're in luck! Contact your CEO and tell them to reset your blue list!!!

You see, the reason for your super long roams looking for targets was in fact your own doing and is still in your power to do something about it. P
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-02-29 17:04:19 UTC
Nyla Skin wrote:


I second this. JB network is one of the few reasons to actually OWN space. And I agree that thats how it should be.


The point of any nerf to power projection would be to allow smaller entities to hold sov. The major power blocs have no issues holding vast swathes of territory as it currently stands. What everyone against a nerf to JB's has said thus far seems to indicate that Jump Bridges are merely a convenience and not the main problem (which would be titans). I am all for a titan nerf.

But let me ask you something. Would nerfing jump bridges be inconvenient for you? The answer, quite obviously judging by the responses from certain parties, is yes.

So, holding sov would be slightly less convenient, slightly less rewarding. Since fewer systems would be useful, it might just happen that you will hold fewer systems. Maybe the systems you choose to hold will be closer together. This would free up less valuable space for smaller entities not in your blue ball.

Jump bridges are a form of power projection. They might not be the main form of power projection, but they are a form of it nonetheless. Nerfing jump bridges discourages larger entities from holding as much space as they currently hold. Isn't that the whole point?
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-02-29 17:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Marzetti
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nyla Skin wrote:


I second this. JB network is one of the few reasons to actually OWN space. And I agree that thats how it should be.


The point of any nerf to power projection would be to allow smaller entities to hold sov. The major power blocs have no issues holding vast swathes of territory as it currently stands. What everyone against a nerf to JB's has said thus far seems to indicate that Jump Bridges are merely a convenience and not the main problem (which would be titans). I am all for a titan nerf.

But let me ask you something. Would nerfing jump bridges be inconvenient for you? The answer, quite obviously judging by the responses from certain parties, is yes.

So, holding sov would be slightly less convenient, slightly less rewarding. Since fewer systems would be useful, it might just happen that you will hold fewer systems. Maybe the systems you choose to hold will be closer together. This would free up less valuable space for smaller entities not in your blue ball.

Jump bridges are a form of power projection. They might not be the main form of power projection, but they are a form of it nonetheless. Nerfing jump bridges discourages larger entities from holding as much space as they currently hold. Isn't that the whole point?

I think there's a subtle but important distinction between the desirability of sov space, and the desirability of holding sov in general. You're saying that if you take away some of the perks, people will desire less sov space, opening it up to other groups, but I'm inclined to think that it would actually make holding sov itself less desirable, meaning people are less likely to want to go to war over it.
Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#60 - 2012-02-29 17:28:04 UTC
Spurty wrote:
Why do people "force project"?
Now, why does force projection need vilifying? You demand even more stagnationation in 0.0?

Yours sincerely bored to death after 10 jumps in empty hostile space.

Bring back super high ways to clusters of active pvpers please. 5 jumps and action. Boom force projection is not the bad guy. Lame travel mechanics is.


tl;dr:
The reason you have to move far to get pew pew is because you can move far. See?

If it was more hard to project power through large distances of space, odds are those systems would be occupied by new players giving you more pew pew outside your doorstep.

When large alliances can control areas, rent them out and only show up (after 15 min) newer entities have little incentive to take a chance and own areas for themselves.

Instead they rent and become blue. And when all is blue then you ahve to move great distances.
It is an evil circle making eve smaller. The way i see it it destroys trade & war opportuinites hence lowering the fun factor.


Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -