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How balanced are tier 3 BC's?

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Digital Messiah
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-02-28 18:30:33 UTC
I ask this question for a few reasons. My main interest however is toward the ease of introducing new ships to EVE online. It doesn't seem like it is "outstandingly" difficult to add new life to these old bones. What is your point of view on the subject? And when will there be "enough" ship variety / ships in game?

Something clever
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-02-28 18:37:46 UTC
Don't fall into the fallacy of "more ships is better". There's already a ton of variety and ships in the game, adding more just makes it harder to balance them, it doesn't cause people to fly more ships. Ships should only be added if there's a clear need for them to fill a role, not just to have more of them.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#3 - 2012-02-28 18:41:17 UTC
IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle.

The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jones Bones
Heretic Army
Sedition.
#4 - 2012-02-28 18:46:11 UTC
Many ships can be fit as "glass cannons". The Tier 3 BCs were designed to be "glass cannons".
Jones Bones
Heretic Army
Sedition.
#5 - 2012-02-28 18:48:35 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.


For solo or small gang this is true. But as a long range line ship in medium to large fleets it really shines.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#6 - 2012-02-28 18:52:20 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.


For solo or small gang this is true. But as a long range line ship in medium to large fleets it really shines.


Yeah, its probably alright if you want to TE it out with MWD, 2 LSE and hang out at 60km. It's definitely got the best damage profile for that kind of work.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jones Bones
Heretic Army
Sedition.
#7 - 2012-02-28 18:57:35 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Yeah, its probably alright if you want to TE it out with MWD, 2 LSE and hang out at 60km. It's definitely got the best damage profile for that kind of work.

-Liang


Slap Tachs on it and Sebos and you're doing 500 dps @ 170km. Cheaper and more agile than a bunch of Apocs too.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#8 - 2012-02-28 19:14:40 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Yeah, its probably alright if you want to TE it out with MWD, 2 LSE and hang out at 60km. It's definitely got the best damage profile for that kind of work.

-Liang


Slap Tachs on it and Sebos and you're doing 500 dps @ 170km. Cheaper and more agile than a bunch of Apocs too.


Yeah I was reading the thread on the HA forums. It'd probably work. Not really my cup of tea but its certainly viable.

+1

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#9 - 2012-02-28 19:18:36 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Yeah I was reading the thread on the HA forums. It'd probably work. Not really my cup of tea but its certainly viable.

PL seems to be rolling with them in large numbers.
Kovorix
Matari Exodus
#10 - 2012-02-28 20:02:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jones Bones wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.


For solo or small gang this is true. But as a long range line ship in medium to large fleets it really shines.


Yeah, its probably alright if you want to TE it out with MWD, 2 LSE and hang out at 60km. It's definitely got the best damage profile for that kind of work.

-Liang


This works out for small gangs too, as long as you have competent gang mates who can keep points.

Overall I think tier 3s are well balanced, but also are changing the game in fairly drastic ways just by increasing the overall damage and speed on the field in every fight. I think the changes (in fleet comp, tactics, general understandings) aren't through settling yet either.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-02-28 20:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Liang Nuren wrote:
IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle.

The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.

-Liang

considering that the naga can project damage in quite a large envelope when compared with all the other 3, having the least mobility of all 4 sorta counterbalances it imho.

all in all, all 4 tier3 BC's have a place in today's game.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Gildinous Vangaurd
The Initiative.
#12 - 2012-02-28 21:21:43 UTC
I've honestly never understood why someone would put a point on a T3 - exception being a Talos, perhaps. Most of them seem to be intended to operate at ranges well outside of using any sort of point. The most obvious way they suggest being employed is with light or heavy tacklers to keep the targets in place while they're sniped from a distance.

"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#13 - 2012-02-28 21:48:31 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Yeah I was reading the thread on the HA forums. It'd probably work. Not really my cup of tea but its certainly viable.

PL seems to be rolling with them in large numbers.

You beat me to it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#14 - 2012-02-28 21:55:36 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Yeah I was reading the thread on the HA forums. It'd probably work. Not really my cup of tea but its certainly viable.

PL seems to be rolling with them in large numbers.

You beat me to it.


I'm not sure why you guys feel it invalidates my assertion that its viable but not my cup of tea.

/shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
axxeessee
Trade and Supplies Co.
#15 - 2012-02-28 22:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: axxeessee
Liang Nuren wrote:
IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle.

The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.

-Liang


The oracle is, by far, the strongest of the T3 bcs for small gang pvp, and when I say far I mean borderline imbalanced.

Find me any ship in the game that has the ability to put a full 800 dps at 70km with the tracking of mega pulse. (Hint : Only a Baddon can have that sort of damage projection if its gank fit, only problem is your baddon cant do 4k/s like the oracle)
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#16 - 2012-02-28 22:12:00 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
Many ships can be fit as "glass cannons". The Tier 3 BCs were designed to be "glass cannons".


They were designed to be cheap (once insured) glass cannons.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#17 - 2012-02-28 22:14:08 UTC
axxeessee wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle.

The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.

-Liang


The oracle is, by far, the strongest of the T3 bcs for small gang pvp, and when I say far I mean borderline imbalanced.

Find me any ship in the game that has the ability to put a full 800 dps at 70km with the tracking of mega pulse. (Hint : Only a Baddon can have that sort of damage projection if its gank fit, only problem is your baddon cant do 4k/s like the oracle)


I can't really visualize it being that good. The lack of a web is just too crippling to be anywhere near a frigate. Can you post some videos up showcasing its abilities?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#18 - 2012-02-28 22:25:05 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm not sure why you guys feel it invalidates my assertion that its viable but not my cup of tea.

/shrug

-Liang

I don't feel that it invalidates anything you said. Ugh

I just posted it because I saw that they were using them...

Did you think I was trying to pick some sort of fight?
axxeessee
Trade and Supplies Co.
#19 - 2012-02-28 22:25:53 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
axxeessee wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle.

The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.

-Liang


The oracle is, by far, the strongest of the T3 bcs for small gang pvp, and when I say far I mean borderline imbalanced.

Find me any ship in the game that has the ability to put a full 800 dps at 70km with the tracking of mega pulse. (Hint : Only a Baddon can have that sort of damage projection if its gank fit, only problem is your baddon cant do 4k/s like the oracle)


I can't really visualize it being that good. The lack of a web is just too crippling to be anywhere near a frigate. Can you post some videos up showcasing its abilities?

-Liang


The trick is to not stay close to anything, you let your gang stay in point range, and you stay far in the back. You cant have a pure oracle gang for obvious reasons, but if you just have a couple of tanky bcs (drakes) to hold points, there is no ship in the game that comes even remotely close to the DPS that an oracle can deal (and since you should be sitting at 70k off everything, you should pretty much be safe). You also need those drakes or whatever to intercept frigates asap, and you should focus them down. (Even if the oracle has BS sized weapon, the tracking is actually pretty good at range for hitting frigates)

The oracle is extremely dependant on your gang, but if your gang is just a little bit comptetent, the damage projection is just borderline OP. The fit is mwd + 2 lse in mids, full rack of mega pulse, and full gank in the lows ( heat sinks and TEs only). As long as you are within 70K (scorch optimal, very balanced I know...), you are dealing a full 780dps (no heat, no implants). Compare that to the other T3s, the tornado doesnt even apply any damage at that range, blaster naga/talos also dont have close to that range, and rail naga/talos dont have close to the tracking of mega pulse.

Got no videos right now but ill try to find something.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#20 - 2012-02-28 22:26:07 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm not sure why you guys feel it invalidates my assertion that its viable but not my cup of tea.

/shrug

-Liang

I don't feel that it invalidates anything you said. Ugh

I just posted it because I saw that they were using them...

Did you think I was trying to pick some sort of fight?


Not until Cambarus posted. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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