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Fighters, Carriers and You
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Mnehal
Ta'un tribe
#1 - 2012-02-28 11:01:44 UTC
The Carrier situation have always made me a bit sad since day one they came out. They're big, cool looking and everyone have one. The original idea was for them to be able to transport players but that was not viable so they turned into over sized drone boats.

And then there's the Fighters and Fighter Bombers, they're simply too cool to be left hanging as mere drones so my idea below is one way of taking care of some of EVE's untapped potential.

The Fighters and Fighter Bombers drones should also be usable as ship hulls for players with signature radius, defensive and missing stats similar to Interceptors and Bombers (without the stealth bonus). There are a couple of things that make these hulls different than ordinary ships.

First they are supposed to get their bonuses while in a fleet directly under a carrier pilot and second they're smaller than frigates so here are the pros and cons to reflect that.

Pros:
The ship get a huge boost to all leadership skills from the Carrier pilot.
The Pilot can fit modules, get racial weapon bonuses, and does much more damage than Fighter drones.
The Ship get a nice damage resistance against Smartbombs.

Cons:
The Fighter/Bomber still use bandwith on the carriers.
The Fighters can only fit turrets.
The Fighter Bombers can only fit launcers for Torpedos and Bombs.
The ship is not big enough for a Pod. Ship kill = Pod kill


So to sum it up. My thought behind this is to add more flare to the fleet fights. The carrier pilot that can find pilots crazy enough to man his drones will be the hero of the day.
The best defence against Manned Fighters are not smartbombs but other Fighters, Frigates or Destroyers.
And the no pod situation will assure that Fighters doesn't take over the Frigate nische, especially since most of it's tactical defences comes from being in a fleet under a Carrier (but that would not stop me from flying it anyway Big smile).
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#2 - 2012-02-28 11:33:11 UTC
What would make people honestly want to use this, rather than just use fighters? Wouldn't it be more cost effective to stick all those pilots in real ships like battle cruisers or battle ships? I know that given the choice between me having to hit "f", and a bunch of scrubs who only ever fly tackle controlling my drones, I'd choose taking the extra second or two to hit "f" every time.

It's a nice idea (that's come up thousands of times already) but it simply wouldn't get used, and it's... messy... from a game design PoV.

As for losing your pod being a deterrent, who cares? Anyone intentionally PvPing in an expensive clone is an idiot anyway, for the majority of players getting auto-podded just means they re-spawn and jump into another ship faster.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Mnehal
Ta'un tribe
#3 - 2012-02-28 12:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mnehal
Personally i think this game painted itself into a corner when it comes to fleet fights (and a lot of other things) that the devs seem to have a hard time getting out of. Diversity (and unity) on the battle field for one. There are so many ship hulls no-one but the 2 day old rookie would use that they could just as well be removed from the game altogether.

Why use fighters? Well I didn't go into detail on how the carrier pilots leadership skills would enhance the fighter pilots. A Fighter drone is roughly like a badly fitted cruiser no? Then for fun sake assume a player fighter would be equal to a good fit cruiser with intie sig and near smart bomb invulnerability. Overpowered absolutely, I just mention it as a possible way to make it a desired option in fleet fields. I don't think it has to go that far for people to use them.

Less drones on the battlefield is another incentive for the sake of lag.

Other Fighter bonuses could apply such as double damage to ships class Cruiser or BC and up which definitely would spur FC's to bring more Frigate hulls to the fight to counter the fighter threat.

If you as a carrier pilot could do twice (or more) the damage to other cap ships by letting your corp mates man the fighters would you not do it (assuming your corp doesn't consist of cap pilots only, which to me points towards severely broken game mechanics).

The idea is to make the fleets more like what you expect from the good ol' sci-fi movies that brought many of the players here and not something built entirely of Caps and 1-3 FoTM extras.

And even if player frigates would be no different than a t1 frigate i'm quite sure a lot of people would use it just because. I kinda got the feeling the general community wanted new hulls to play with. This idea would save some time in the 3D Artist department.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#4 - 2012-02-28 13:32:26 UTC
Mnehal wrote:
Personally i think this game painted itself into a corner when it comes to fleet fights (and a lot of other things) that the devs seem to have a hard time getting out of. Diversity (and unity) on the battle field for one. There are so many ship hulls no-one but the 2 day old rookie would use that they could just as well be removed from the game altogether.

Why use fighters? Well I didn't go into detail on how the carrier pilots leadership skills would enhance the fighter pilots. A Fighter drone is roughly like a badly fitted cruiser no? Then for fun sake assume a player fighter would be equal to a good fit cruiser with intie sig and near smart bomb invulnerability. Overpowered absolutely, I just mention it as a possible way to make it a desired option in fleet fields. I don't think it has to go that far for people to use them.

Buffing player controlled fighters would be the only way to make it a desired option in fleet fights. And buffing fighters to the extent that this would become a viable alternative to just putting them in other ships is a very, very bad idea.

One other thing you're missing is, how do these fighters get to location? They can now jump inside the carrier? What happens when the carrier goes down, what happens if the carrier wants it's fighters back, is control removed from the pilots? Like I said, it's messy.

Mnehal wrote:
Less drones on the battlefield is another incentive for the sake of lag.

Other Fighter bonuses could apply such as double damage to ships class Cruiser or BC and up which definitely would spur FC's to bring more Frigate hulls to the fight to counter the fighter threat.

If you as a carrier pilot could do twice (or more) the damage to other cap ships by letting your corp mates man the fighters would you not do it (assuming your corp doesn't consist of cap pilots only, which to me points towards severely broken game mechanics).

I might do it in some circumstances, for example solo dropping supers would now give you 16-17k DPS, but in a fleet fight what's going to be more use: 20 more pilots for an extra 8k DPS, or 20 more battleships for an extra 20k DPS provided by 20 high EHP ships that can easily be repped?

Also, you wouldn't kill them with frigates, you'd just alpha them off the field like you do now.

Mnehal wrote:
The idea is to make the fleets more like what you expect from the good ol' sci-fi movies that brought many of the players here and not something built entirely of Caps and 1-3 FoTM extras.

And even if player frigates would be no different than a t1 frigate i'm quite sure a lot of people would use it just because. I kinda got the feeling the general community wanted new hulls to play with. This idea would save some time in the 3D Artist department.

"Saving some time in the art department" at the cost of hundreds of man hours spent balancing, writing code involved in jumping pilots around in another pilots ships, designing the controls etc... That isn't saving time, especially not for a feature that brings little to the game and probably wouldn't be used.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-02-28 13:49:18 UTC
It wouldn't work. Simple as that. I do like the idea of customizing bombers and fighters though.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#6 - 2012-02-28 13:56:04 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
I do like the idea of customizing bombers and fighters though.

Now this I'd be a little more happy with. Having the choice to sacrifice tank for speed, tracking for DPS etc. would be interesting.

At the moment with fighters/bombers all of them are pretty much identical, except for very minor differences in speed and shield/armor HP.

One thing that's been bugging me a while, what's the point in shadow bombers? The stats seem nearly identical to normal bombers except they do two types of damage instead of one :/ I was tempted to buy some, but can't really justify it. Seems odd given that they're supposedly faction fighters.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Mnehal
Ta'un tribe
#7 - 2012-02-28 14:35:41 UTC
Simi

Yes the Carrier to Fighter buff was the main idea of player fighters, and the other bonuses to add more cookie but these are as with everything on this section of the forum an idea that could and should be altered to something that would work.

My general thoughts are how to bring in as many hulls in fleet fights as possible. Player Fighters is just one of many.

How the fighters get to the fight would work similar to now. Either the Fighter pilot bring his own Fighter (once he pops the Carrier pilot launch a drone Fighter replacement, following normal rules) or a player fly in pod or ship to the carrier and get a pre fit fighter from the ship maintenance bay.
It was the original idea (as i understand it) that players would dock with the carrier and jump with it but they had to scrap that idea after they announced it because it mangled the server. The emergency idea was Fighter drones.

If a Carrier had the potential to do damage equal to two carriers with manned fighters i think it would be worth it since 10 fighters are cheaper than one carrier.

You are assuming that every involved fighter pilot own have the capability to fly BS or Caps and if that's the case then yes it would be a less efficient option. But it could also boost smaller corporations with less Caps available.

I don't know if trying to alpha off 40 + player fighters with interceptor signature and cruiser HP would be that efficient. Smile Ok, admittedly i go a little over the top to salvage my idea and i hope you excuse me for it but my point is that it could possible be tweaked into something that add to EVE.


Saving time in the art department was not something i thought you'd get stuck on since it was never meant serious P

Vertisce

Customizing bombers and fighters is a nice idea but one i'd rather not see in the game since it would again make "solo" Caps more powerful. I want more players and less drones on the field.


So with that in mind I wonder what you'd suggest to make Carriers more like Carriers? Big smile
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#8 - 2012-02-28 14:49:57 UTC
You can't bind two players to one ship in the game. Meaning that you can't have player ships (such as fighters) docked in another ship (like a carrier). It's a game engine limitation which would require writing pretty much an entirely new game to solve.

It won't happen. Ever. Get over it and search the forums to see that it's been discussed many times already. /thread
Mnehal
Ta'un tribe
#9 - 2012-02-28 14:52:49 UTC
mxzf wrote:
You can't bind two players to one ship in the game. Meaning that you can't have player ships (such as fighters) docked in another ship (like a carrier). It's a game engine limitation which would require writing pretty much an entirely new game to solve.

It won't happen. Ever. Get over it and search the forums to see that it's been discussed many times already. /thread


Aye, and my idea was never about that. Smile
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#10 - 2012-02-28 14:57:56 UTC
Mnehal wrote:
mxzf wrote:
You can't bind two players to one ship in the game. Meaning that you can't have player ships (such as fighters) docked in another ship (like a carrier). It's a game engine limitation which would require writing pretty much an entirely new game to solve.

It won't happen. Ever. Get over it and search the forums to see that it's been discussed many times already. /thread


Aye, and my idea was never about that. Smile

In that case your proposal is just buffed T1 frigates with fleet bonuses?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#11 - 2012-02-28 15:02:28 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
Mnehal wrote:
mxzf wrote:
You can't bind two players to one ship in the game. Meaning that you can't have player ships (such as fighters) docked in another ship (like a carrier). It's a game engine limitation which would require writing pretty much an entirely new game to solve.

It won't happen. Ever. Get over it and search the forums to see that it's been discussed many times already. /thread


Aye, and my idea was never about that. Smile


How do the fighters actually get to the fight then praytell? Either you're suggesting that people be able to board them in stations and fly around (which makes them just renamed T1 frigs and cuts the carrier out of the discussion) or you're suggesting the carrier be able to carry the pilots in their fighters (which is the issue I just pointed out). So, either it's pointless, or it's impossible.
Mnehal
Ta'un tribe
#12 - 2012-02-28 15:09:18 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Mnehal wrote:
mxzf wrote:
You can't bind two players to one ship in the game. Meaning that you can't have player ships (such as fighters) docked in another ship (like a carrier). It's a game engine limitation which would require writing pretty much an entirely new game to solve.

It won't happen. Ever. Get over it and search the forums to see that it's been discussed many times already. /thread


Aye, and my idea was never about that. Smile

In that case your proposal is just buffed T1 frigates with fleet bonuses?



As long as you use them as a solo ship. The magic happens when flying under a carrier. Plus it brings 8 new sexy looking pilot hulls on the market.
Mnehal
Ta'un tribe
#13 - 2012-02-28 15:13:03 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Mnehal wrote:
mxzf wrote:
You can't bind two players to one ship in the game. Meaning that you can't have player ships (such as fighters) docked in another ship (like a carrier). It's a game engine limitation which would require writing pretty much an entirely new game to solve.

It won't happen. Ever. Get over it and search the forums to see that it's been discussed many times already. /thread


Aye, and my idea was never about that. Smile


How do the fighters actually get to the fight then praytell? Either you're suggesting that people be able to board them in stations and fly around (which makes them just renamed T1 frigs and cuts the carrier out of the discussion) or you're suggesting the carrier be able to carry the pilots in their fighters (which is the issue I just pointed out). So, either it's pointless, or it's impossible.


As stated before, swapped pre fit from maintenance bay or flown to the system the Carrier is in by the pilot. As i said the Fighter is in an intimate relation to the Carrier and the buff should be tweaked so that endless love flows from their embrace.
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-02-28 15:38:32 UTC
I love the enthusiasm to put players in fighters. But the only place that might happen is in DUST 514. I even let myself dream of crazy ways to let CCP somehow do this, but I always come back to the "It's just too damn difficult" argument. Especially for the worth of this. Customizable and faction fighters would be sweet. Also maybe MAYBE one day T2 fighters with docking capabilities for some sort of DUST vs pilot thing would be amazing. I really dunno.

But all told, it's tricky to change any of this stuff without breaking the game and bankrupting CCP.

Damnit, now I wish there were fighters that would let DUST players into a freighter so they could nick off with some valuable ****!... Ahh, one step at a time.
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#15 - 2012-02-28 15:45:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Serge Bastana
I want my fighters under my control, simple as that. I'm the one paying 15 - 20 mill per fighter, get your own assault frigate and fly that.

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

Mnehal
Ta'un tribe
#16 - 2012-02-28 15:57:07 UTC
The Hamilton wrote:
I love the enthusiasm to put players in fighters. But the only place that might happen is in DUST 514. I even let myself dream of crazy ways to let CCP somehow do this, but I always come back to the "It's just too damn difficult" argument. Especially for the worth of this. Customizable and faction fighters would be sweet. Also maybe MAYBE one day T2 fighters with docking capabilities for some sort of DUST vs pilot thing would be amazing. I really dunno.

But all told, it's tricky to change any of this stuff without breaking the game and bankrupting CCP.

Damnit, now I wish there were fighters that would let DUST players into a freighter so they could nick off with some valuable ****!... Ahh, one step at a time.


While on Dust planets they could be flown with joystick etc (cool stuff Big smile) but while in space flown like an ordinary EVE ship. Don't know if that was what you where thinking but I thought i should clear that up before someone assume that was what i meant. Blink
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#17 - 2012-02-28 15:58:54 UTC
Mnehal wrote:
As stated before, swapped pre fit from maintenance bay or flown to the system the Carrier is in by the pilot. As i said the Fighter is in an intimate relation to the Carrier and the buff should be tweaked so that endless love flows from their embrace.


Then just carry a few T1 frigs in your Maint bay and let the pilots that want to, use them. Then you get your fighters AND the newbies can fly around in a small ship like you want. As I already said, either your idea is useless due to already existing mechanics.
Mnehal
Ta'un tribe
#18 - 2012-02-28 16:00:41 UTC
Serge Bastana wrote:
I want my fighters under my control, simple as that. I'm the one paying 15 - 20 mill per fighter, get your own assault frigate and fly that.



And you can keep them all for yourself. The thingy is that playable fighters take up bandwith so if you for some reason want to launch one of your own Fighter drone you either kick a fighter player in your gang or wait 'til they blow up (where you can allow them to pick up a new fighter if you please).
If you don't want to share they need meet up in their own fighter.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#19 - 2012-02-28 16:14:51 UTC
Mnehal wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
I want my fighters under my control, simple as that. I'm the one paying 15 - 20 mill per fighter, get your own assault frigate and fly that.



And you can keep them all for yourself. The thingy is that playable fighters take up bandwith so if you for some reason want to launch one of your own Fighter drone you either kick a fighter player in your gang or wait 'til they blow up (where you can allow them to pick up a new fighter if you please).
If you don't want to share they need meet up in their own fighter.

So what you're saying is these are just buffed frigates? Why would they be used any more than assault frigates?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Mnehal
Ta'un tribe
#20 - 2012-02-28 16:17:15 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Mnehal wrote:
As stated before, swapped pre fit from maintenance bay or flown to the system the Carrier is in by the pilot. As i said the Fighter is in an intimate relation to the Carrier and the buff should be tweaked so that endless love flows from their embrace.


Then just carry a few T1 frigs in your Maint bay and let the pilots that want to, use them. Then you get your fighters AND the newbies can fly around in a small ship like you want. As I already said, either your idea is useless due to already existing mechanics.


The frigs would not be anywhere near as efficient as the fighters.

I don't think the idea is useless or i would not have posted. It needs tweaking sure but the main point was to bring in smaller ships into fleet fights.

Player Fighters creates new tactics to counter and is best so with other fighters, frigates and destroyers.

I'm sorry to say this but it sounds like if one would go on your line then most ships in EVE are useless since all we need then is one hauler class ship, one tackler class, one battleship class for the noobs and the rest cap ships like the good ol' times.

The one ships that really didn't have any place in EVE are the caps. First came the Dreads because POS bashing was such a drag. The carriers to take care of the Dreads and Titans because they been promising a super duper all out epeen for a long time. We all know what happened after that.

Ok i like caps just like the other guy, but CCP did launch the suckers prematurely and has been somewhat of a problem child ever since, nerf or no nerf.

When fixing things i think one should start from the bottom but this idea meet in the middle. Smile
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