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[Proposal] Display target capacitor status

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Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#1 - 2011-09-20 16:04:07 UTC
Display the locked target capacitor status just like the UI currently shields, armor and structure bars.

Say, as a blue vertical bar on the left of the target icon.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Magnus Orin
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-09-20 16:29:33 UTC
Too powerful. I don't support this. Keep the vagueness in capacitor warfare.

There are many many ways to know when your target is out of cap.
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#3 - 2011-09-20 17:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Karim alRashid
Same arguments apply to shield, armor and structure.

There's no logic whatsoever capacitor to differ. Period.

PS. Of course, this will be useful to logistic pilots as well.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Dark Drifter
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#4 - 2011-09-20 21:27:21 UTC
what you are asking for is already implemented in game...

however you do need to fit a ship scanner.

when you scan a ship it will shot a bunch of fittings in the main context window, just above that
is a small bar with current cap of max cap indicator.

so...


not supported
JamesCLK
#5 - 2011-09-20 23:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: JamesCLK
I hate to say this, but capacitor warfare does NOT need a boost.

Why would this be a boost? Well:
1. You need less neuts on a target that has gone below his capacitor stability threshold (eg. once he is capdead, remove some of your neuts unless he's got a cap booster) and he will remain capdead. The change you proposed would make this VERY easy to see.
2. You would be able to easily identify when the target's capacitor use/regen cycles kick in (eg. when his modules sap his cap the most, or when the booster injects cap). This would make timing your neutralisers to hit him just before/after his modules cycle a piece of cake.

I'm sure there are more sides to it, but it's past midnight, so What?

And remember, there is no reason NOT to run your nosfetaru anyway - assuming anyone uses them anymore.

As was mentioned, if you're that desperate to see the capacitor level of your target, fit a ship scanner.
Thing with the ship scanner is that it only gives you a snapshot of the target's capacitor, not a consistant changing value you can survey, this avoids the above perks - it's still useful in some niches though.


If we're going on the topic of capacitor warfare, I'd rather rant about how capacitor neuts are the bane of anything not minmatar/drake - and how neuts should use capacitor booster charges instead of your ship's capacitor (limits how many cycles you can get off to your cargo hold - and means the laws of conservation of energy don't get broken quite as brutally Oops).

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Goose99
#6 - 2011-09-21 02:34:04 UTC
Not supported. Also, make it so a ship scanner is required to see shield/armor/hull hp too.Big smile
LiSung
New Eden Asteroid Preservation Society
#7 - 2011-09-21 02:59:07 UTC
There's some logic to being able to see the status of their shields, armor, and hull: external indicators would tell you what condition they're in. Shields would have an energy signature which could be monitored, armor and hull damage would be visible and easily detected with a surface scan.

Capacitor level doesn't fit with that information. The capacitor is internal and could even be shielded.
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#8 - 2011-09-21 09:37:09 UTC
Dark Drifter wrote:

when you scan a ship it will shot a bunch of fittings in the main context window, just above that
is a small bar with current cap of max cap indicator.


Fitting a ship scanner/taking up a valuable slot is not practical for any PvP or logistics fit.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#9 - 2011-09-21 09:53:11 UTC
JamesCLK wrote:
I hate to say this, but capacitor warfare does NOT need a boost.

Why would this be a boost? Well:
1. You need less neuts on a target that has gone below his capacitor stability threshold (eg. once he is capdead, remove some of your neuts unless he's got a cap booster) and he will remain capdead. The change you proposed would make this VERY easy to see.
2. You would be able to easily identify when the target's capacitor use/regen cycles kick in (eg. when his modules sap his cap the most, or when the booster injects cap). This would make timing your neutralisers to hit him just before/after his modules cycle a piece of cake.


Yes, it's a boost to the game. Is there anything wrong with boosting the game?

When proposing game changes, one's goal is NOT to dumb down the game, but to avoid violating game balance. Hence, I'd accept arguments, which prove that such a change tips the game balance in a way as to create overpowered ships/module.

This proposal does not affect any attribute of any module or ship, it just provides more information and provides it equally to everyone, in effect improving combat and logistics by allowing pilots to take informed decisions instead of gambling.

So, about 1. yes, that's what I consider a good thing, taking informed combat decisions.

About your point 2. currently the situation is asymmetrical in that the pilot being neuted can time his/her injector activations according to the opposing pilot neutralizer/nosferatu activations. WIth my proposal this option would be available to the neuting pilot also, thus restoring symmetry and improving game balance.

Quote:

If we're going on the topic of capacitor warfare, I'd rather rant about how capacitor neuts are the bane of anything not minmatar/drake - and how neuts should use capacitor booster charges instead of your ship's capacitor (limits how many cycles you can get off to your cargo hold - and means the laws of conservation of energy don't get broken quite as brutally Oops).


That's an entirely different topic together with the issue of 100% effectiveness of neuts regardless of neut size vs. target ship size.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#10 - 2011-09-21 09:58:31 UTC
LiSung wrote:
There's some logic to being able to see the status of their shields, armor, and hull: external indicators would tell you what condition they're in. Shields would have an energy signature which could be monitored, armor and hull damage would be visible and easily detected with a surface scan.

Capacitor level doesn't fit with that information. The capacitor is internal and could even be shielded.


If we should go into rolleplaying-pseudo-scientific-lore arguments, then allow me to present my patented energy neutralizer and nosferatu design - clever circuitry within the device determines the target capacitor status by examining the curve of the energy flow during the module cycle.

Big smile

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Dark Drifter
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#11 - 2011-09-21 14:44:01 UTC
i never stated that it was a good mod to fit in PVP...

i just informed you that what you are asking for is already implemented.

besides i have seen mission gankers use the ship scanner in pvp an TBH to great effect as well.

please for the love of ZENU don't implement anything like this CCP. i don't want vanilla PVP



no supported

DD
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#12 - 2011-09-21 14:53:37 UTC
Dark Drifter wrote:
i never stated that it was a good mod to fit in PVP...

i just informed you that what you are asking for is already implemented.



Do you have reading comprehension issues?

I have never asked for a module, which allows you to look at target capacitor status.

If you have some proper arguments against in the sense how the game will become worse, please share them.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#13 - 2011-09-21 16:17:12 UTC
Karim alRashid wrote:
Dark Drifter wrote:

when you scan a ship it will shot a bunch of fittings in the main context window, just above that
is a small bar with current cap of max cap indicator.


Fitting a ship scanner/taking up a valuable slot is not practical for any PvP or logistics fit.


This falls squarely in the category of "too effing bad".

If you want more intel, you need to sacrifice a slot to do so.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#14 - 2011-09-21 16:21:03 UTC
Karim alRashid wrote:
LiSung wrote:
There's some logic to being able to see the status of their shields, armor, and hull: external indicators would tell you what condition they're in. Shields would have an energy signature which could be monitored, armor and hull damage would be visible and easily detected with a surface scan.

Capacitor level doesn't fit with that information. The capacitor is internal and could even be shielded.


If we should go into rolleplaying-pseudo-scientific-lore arguments, then allow me to present my patented energy neutralizer and nosferatu design - clever circuitry within the device determines the target capacitor status by examining the curve of the energy flow during the module cycle.

Big smile


This I counter with my patent-pending Signal Transfer Flux Unambiguator, which completely masks the capacitors status from anyone outside the ship.

If only it had a clever abbreviation...

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#15 - 2011-09-21 16:29:07 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:


If only it had a clever abbreviation...



If only you could provide sensible argumentation ....

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
JamesCLK
#16 - 2011-09-21 17:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: JamesCLK
Karim alRashid wrote:

Yes, it's a boost to the game. Is there anything wrong with boosting the game?

When proposing game changes, one's goal is NOT to dumb down the game, but to avoid violating game balance. Hence, I'd accept arguments, which prove that such a change tips the game balance in a way as to create overpowered ships/module.

This proposal does not affect any attribute of any module or ship, it just provides more information and provides it equally to everyone, in effect improving combat and logistics by allowing pilots to take informed decisions instead of gambling.

So, about 1. yes, that's what I consider a good thing, taking informed combat decisions.

About your point 2. currently the situation is asymmetrical in that the pilot being neuted can time his/her injector activations according to the opposing pilot neutralizer/nosferatu activations. WIth my proposal this option would be available to the neuting pilot also, thus restoring symmetry and improving game balance.


It's not a boost to the game, it's a boost to capacitor warfare - especially neutralisers.
You just invalidated your own idea by saying that the goal is not to dumb the game down, yet giving free intel does just this! Straight

I mean- look at the whole debacle about local in 0.0!
People can see how many reds are in the system, and it has made fleet combat become homogenous and stagnant; large scale PvP has boiled down to bringing more ships than you know the enemy has - even if it's supercariers. I'm not saying that there isn't PvP, but I am saying that local makes fleet combat extremely boring and tedious - 200 man gangs are cool, but not when you get hotdropped by a 400 man blob and you don't have any more forces to commit to a fight - all because their scout just did a local count. This was true before Dominion, and it's still true now! What?

Intel is the most powerful weapon you can have, it's more potent than any tweak to a module or new mechanic and it will save your ship more than any ammount of warp core stabs, or insane DPS tank will. Most importantly, intel should be something you need to work for to obtain.

[In case you were wondering or contemplating a harsh reply, I'm comparing your idea to local in 0.0 because they are both about free intel]


What would happen if you could see your target's capacitor status?
It would certainly give me that much more of a reason to fly Minmatar and ignore Amarr and Gallente ships completely as all of their systems rely on capacitor (capacitor is life and all).

I'd also like to ask this question to the rest of the people here:
What would you do if you could see your target's capacitor and he- yours?

Don't make capacitor warfare a game of watching grey (or in this case blue?) bars turn red; if anything that's dumbing down things more than it is already.


On your second point - from what I'm understanding - you want people sporting neuts (such as Curses) to see exactly when their target refills their capacitor so they can invalidate the very 'counter' to their own neut (if only capacitor boosters countered more than a couple neuts Roll). I'm sorry, but that doesn't equalise things, that makes people with neuts have a huge advantage. Neutralisers are already as big a pain in the thruster as ECM.

Karim alRashid wrote:

That's an entirely different topic together with the issue of 100% effectiveness of neuts regardless of neut size vs. target ship size.


Yes, it is a different topic which doesn't need to be discussed here either; I was just digressing into a topic that related to capacitor warfare (which this thread's suggestion belongs to since it would affect the game mechanics related to capacitors).

You're entitled to your opinion, but so am I - and the rest of the people in the thread (I'm sure they can read just fine!).

Let me know if I misunderstood anything. I know it's not fun to get the idea you think is a great concept shot at by people, but such are the EON forums.

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Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#17 - 2011-09-21 18:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Karim alRashid
JamesCLK wrote:

It's not a boost to the game, it's a boost to capacitor warfare - especially neutralisers.
You just invalidated your own idea by saying that the goal is not to dumb the game down, but giving free intel does just this! Straight


Apparently we have different opinions as to what constitutes "dumbing down". In my book, flipping a coin (activating a neu/nos) and hoping for the best is the dumb, mindless thing, taking an informed combat decision is the smart thing.

According to your logic, displaying the shield and armor status is "dumbing down" the game as well, because it is free intel, would you support removing this information and requiring a separate module and ~work~ to obtain it?

Quote:

I mean- look at the whole debacle about local in 0.0!
People can see how many reds are in the system, and it has made fleet combat become homogenous and stagnant; large scale PvP has boiled down to bringing more ships than you know the enemy has - even if it's supercariers. I'm not saying that there isn't PvP, but I am saying that local makes fleet combat extremely boring and tedious - 200 man gangs are cool, but not when you get hotdropped by a 400 man blob and you don't have any more forces to commit to a fight - all because their scout just did a local count. This was true before Dominion, and it's still true now! What?


Besides being off-topic, I don't agree with this either. Wherever I have played, intel was obtained with eyes on the hostiles, not by counting reds in local, not to mention that this statistics is available from the starmap.

Quote:

Intel is the most powerful weapon you can have, it's more potent than any tweak to a mo
dule or new mechanic and it will save your ship more than any ammount of warp core stabs, or insane DPS tank will. Most importantly, intel should be something you need to work for to obtain.


Like with everything, there needs to be a balance - certain things should be easily seen, some other require work. The world, let alone a game, which is supposed to be fun, is not black and white.

Quote:

What would happen if you could see your target's capacitor status?
It would certainly give me that much more of a reason to fly Minmatar and ignore Amarr and Gallente ships completely as all of their systems rely on capacitor (capacitor is life and all).


This argument is flawed as well. Ships need capacitor for many many things besides the weapon systems - most notably: the point, the web, the propulsion, the reppers.

Quote:

On your second point - from what I'm understanding - you want people sporting neuts (such as Curses) to see exactly when their target refills their capacitor so they can invalidate the very 'counter' to their own neut (if only capacitor boosters countered more than a couple neuts Roll). I'm sorry, but that doesn't equalise things, that makes people with neuts have a huge advantage. Neutralisers are already as big a pain in the thruster as ECM.


Oh, yes, providing equal information equalizes things. If we can't agree on such basic semantics, there really is no point discussing anything.

You may argue that the pilot being neuted should have an advantage over the neuting one, but you can't argue that making them have different information ~equalizes~ things.


PS. Still, I appreciate you put some thought in it, instead of making snide one-liners. o7

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
JamesCLK
#18 - 2011-09-21 20:33:29 UTC  |  Edited by: JamesCLK
- Snip, I don't need to make this post to begin with -

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Damian Gene
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#19 - 2011-09-21 20:37:12 UTC
Karim alRashid wrote:
Dark Drifter wrote:

when you scan a ship it will shot a bunch of fittings in the main context window, just above that
is a small bar with current cap of max cap indicator.


Fitting a ship scanner/taking up a valuable slot is not practical for any PvP or logistics fit.


Cool Story Bro,
Hate to say it, but your doing it wrong.
Step 1. There's a ship class called Cover Ops
Step 2. They have mid slots and don't use them for tank.
Step 3. Fit a ship scanner.
Step 4. Join a fleet and be a scout.
Step 5. Don't die, relay intel, including cap status, use cloaking / warping / mwd / etc.

If you don't believe it works, join a 0.0 alliance and tag along when a super's tackled, or in super fleets. This is used frequently, as knowing the cap of a capital / super is valuable to killing it in a timely fashion.
Also, you will get the ship fittings, and go figure, can be useful to change up damage type based on tank holes.

If you want it for solo, nut up and waist a mid slot. CCP made that mod for a reason.

You sir, are either very very inexperienced, or unresourceful.
Google Sh*t, don't try to brake our game. Else you look like a fool.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-09-21 21:54:16 UTC
Hate to say this Karim but most are going to be against you on this. Personally I would rather see them remove shield, armor and hull from being seen as well but as stated before those are there for logical reasons such as being able to visually see the damage. You can't visually see a capacitor level without a ship scanner.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
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