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Capsuleer Cowardice

Author
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#1 - 2012-02-26 23:26:33 UTC
Today I lost the "Bluebird" (Viator) while transporting liberated slaves out of low sec space. The reasons were my own mistakes in combination with the cowardice of a Capsuleer pilot named Drakir I.

As I left the station, I noted two other pilots in the system. Usually any trouble there has happened at the gates. This time, one was right outside the station. Looking back, I made a couple key mistakes.
1. I had two cargo hold expansions installed. I should have had one warp core stabilizer installed.
2. I should have taken a pod out to locate the ships first then taken the Viator.

The ship warp scrambled me and had me destroyed before I could escape or re-dock. 1219 people were on board and they survived the attack. I had no way of getting any vessel with any cargo hold nearby that would be safe to used to rescue the people. 23 people at a time in a rookie ship would take too long and the lives would be endangered.

The pilot who attacked me was still right there went I went back out to begin bringing in the survivors. I tried to contact him to ask him to help me bring them back to the station. Nothing doing. Some of the passengers were his own Sebiestor brothers and sisters. The Viator was unarmed when he attacked and I was on a humanitarian mission.

A big thanks to the Prowler pilot who eventually helped me. Oh yes, in the meantime, someone else comes along and salvages the ship but leaves the survivors, again no help. I know that some pilots kill for sport and I accept that as a risk of my work. I have lost many ships doing this kind of thing and they are replaceable.

However, I think it is cowardly to use a heavily armed vessel to destroy an unarmed non-hostile vessel engaged in humanitarian, non-violent work and to do so just for the sake of killing. Then to refuse to help the survivors? Even those of your own tribe? I wonder if Drakir felt a great adrenaline rush as he fired on a ship that could not fire back. Did it make him feel brave? Manly? Big and important?

Thankfully, all 1219 passengers made it alive. Sadly, my crew was lost. For that, I hold myself responsible.

I wonder what standards combat pilots hold to as to who they will fire on or not. What do you consider cowardly? Brave?

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.

Naraish Adarn
Alexylva Paradox
#2 - 2012-02-26 23:56:56 UTC
they wouldn't be pirates if they were brave or intelligent. if they were under orders to attack unarmed ships their leader is as spinless as the pilot who fired the ships weapons.
the cowardly and weak prey on unarmed vessels as they are unable to perform better than an avarage brute. and they proved their lack of intellect by not veryfying what the cargo contained instead just firing blindly hoping for something to fall out.

so much for honor.
Deceiver's Voice
Molok Subclade
#3 - 2012-02-27 06:09:58 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:
I wonder what standards combat pilots hold to as to who they will fire on or not. What do you consider cowardly? Brave?

It's not about cowardice or bravery. You were a target, nothing more, nothing less. No one else had an obligation to your passengers and crew. No one else had an obligation to help you. It does not make anyone your lesser, nor you their superior.

You could have taken measures to increase your chances of survival. You did not. It is your lesson to learn.

As cold as it sounds, it is the way things are. Take it as a lesson, and if you feel that others need to be made aware of what they can do in other situations such as this, I will smile and consider the universe better for it. Do not however make the mistake of seeing yourself as any better than anyone else simply for doing a kind deed.
Theobar Cresthill
The Arzad Hamri Fellowship
#4 - 2012-02-27 13:50:58 UTC
Deceiver's Voice wrote:
Do not however make the mistake of seeing yourself as any better than anyone else simply for doing a kind deed.


I have followed this wrong headed work of those who go about freeing slaves and I wholly disagree with it. However, the above statement of Deceiver's voice is one of the more ridiculous things I have heard on its own. To make no distinction between moral excellence and moral depravity is to doom civilized society. The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly. I cannot confirm the acts of the pilot in question and so will not pass judgment , but there are acts of cowardice and they are abundant in this universe. There are also acts of bravery, unselfishness, love and kindness, and they are less abundant.

Those who want to justify everything they do claim that all acts are morally neutral. That is wrong. If the pilot in question acted cowardly, then he is a coward. We need to make those distinctions of value if we are to have any society at all. I'm guessing that Deceiver's voice is probably recalling her own acts of cowardice and trying to justify them herself.

"The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri)

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#5 - 2012-02-27 18:12:20 UTC
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly. I cannot confirm the acts of the pilot in question


This is a logical fallacy, making a specific fact a generality. You do not know what other deeds both of them do.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#6 - 2012-02-27 18:16:22 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly. I cannot confirm the acts of the pilot in question


This is a logical fallacy, making a specific fact a generality. You do not know what other deeds both of them do.


Not to mention that one person's good deed is another's heinous crime. Perspective's a pain.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Theobar Cresthill
The Arzad Hamri Fellowship
#7 - 2012-02-27 18:16:48 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly. I cannot confirm the acts of the pilot in question


This is a logical fallacy, making a specific fact a generality. You do not know what other deeds both of them do.


Be a more careful reader, Ms. Farel. I am not inferring a specific from a generality. I am acknowledging that Kindness is better than Cowardice and admitting that I know neither of the pilots well enough to attribute either to them. My point was against the idea that these are morally neutral categories.

"The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri)

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#8 - 2012-02-27 18:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Edaine Numenor wrote:

However, I think it is cowardly to use a heavily armed vessel to destroy an unarmed non-hostile vessel engaged in humanitarian, non-violent work and to do so just for the sake of killing. Then to refuse to help the survivors? Even those of your own tribe? I wonder if Drakir felt a great adrenaline rush as he fired on a ship that could not fire back. Did it make him feel brave? Manly? Big and important?


Perhaps he did not scan your ship first, and was not aware of NBH's mission, so he was expecting something of great monetary value to be hauled around in a Viator. Or perhaps he is indeed a spineless coward. Or both.

Though, as a point of technicality, I would argue that the caliber of the guns is irrelevant to his morality. You wouldn't be any less upset if he attacked you with a lightly armed vessel instead, would you?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2012-02-27 18:38:22 UTC
Also, Mr Numenor, as much as I despise piracy, I should advise you now not to do anything when undocking, except stopping your ship : this is indeed not considered as a real move by the station (unlike everything else) and you will remain protected until you can dock again (but not a second more).

Unless this has changed recently.

Theobar Cresthill wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly. I cannot confirm the acts of the pilot in question


This is a logical fallacy, making a specific fact a generality. You do not know what other deeds both of them do.


Be a more careful reader, Ms. Farel. I am not inferring a specific from a generality. I am acknowledging that Kindness is better than Cowardice and admitting that I know neither of the pilots well enough to attribute either to them. My point was against the idea that these are morally neutral categories.


Then you have my apologies, though you stated exactly that "The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly" : here the person is the subject and is qualified to be "better" than the other person, a conclusion based on two mere specific facts (kind deed vs coward deed). Said differently, it means that a kind deed makes someone better than the one that did a coward deed.

Thank you for the clarification, though, but your words were highly inaccurate and a source of misunderstanding for me. It never involved my carefulness here.
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
#10 - 2012-02-27 18:55:46 UTC
You seem to be leaving out a plausible reason as to why you were attacked. Typically when one is at war, your enemy hides his logistical and ISK making endeavors behind a veil of neutrality. Therefore to insure the possibility of victory one must be resigned to attack and disrupt these neutral entities. Unfortunately in your case the attack truly was unwarranted, however to call the aggressor a coward is in fact not warranted either. We should all just be thankful that your passengers survived and were eventually rescued.

nom nom

Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#11 - 2012-02-27 19:08:11 UTC
Thank you Ms. Nexxala, Ms. Farel, and Mr. Blackshell for your feedback and thought; especially, Ms. Farel for your tip on exiting stations. So an immediate stop and redock would have been the best thing to do. I'll memorize that.

You may all be right and my presumption that the pilot acted cowardly may be off. The other detail that I didn't elaborate on was the fact that I made several trips out with a rookie ship to retrieve the survivors while he was present and tried to request his help. His ship was large enough had we worked together, the passengers would have been quickly rescued. But, he refused though it was obvious what I was doing. I guess that was my reason for questioning. I have met many brave and noble warrior and have even been shot at by some of them. What ties them all together is the willingness after a battle to show mercy even to the enemy that has been defeated. I think that is one of the hallmarks of true courage.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.

Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#12 - 2012-02-27 19:11:04 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:
Thank you Ms. Nexxala, Ms. Farel, and Mr. Blackshell for your feedback and thought; especially, Ms. Farel for your tip on exiting stations. So an immediate stop and redock would have been the best thing to do. I'll memorize that.
Another good idea would be to never dock in a lowsec station for which you do not have an "instawarp" location bookmarked along the station's undocking vector. They're not difficult to make, and while they involve a small time investment, they are worth the time spent in the amount of lives and ISK saved by their use - just be careful not to be probed down while in one or making one.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Deceiver's Voice
Molok Subclade
#13 - 2012-02-27 21:43:31 UTC
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
I have followed this wrong headed work of those who go about freeing slaves and I wholly disagree with it.

A very telling statement and one that perhaps blinds you to what was actually said by me. I believe there is nothing to be gained from further discussion.

Fly safe.
Kalen Vox
Veyr
The Veyr Collective
#14 - 2012-02-27 21:46:21 UTC
By and large, people seem to be inherently malevolent.

His goal will be to cause suffering to you and to anyone else. Nothing more. Years of experience have told me there is no point trying to rationalise it. There could be strategic motives behind his attack, yes, but the chances are so small that it's almost pointless even considering it.

Firing on unarmed ships is unpleasant. I have done it in the past, usually when they are carrying out recon on my fleet. I suppose firing on unarmed ships is cowardly. But he won't see it that way, and nor will most people while the task is at hand..
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#15 - 2012-02-28 00:20:12 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Edaine Numenor wrote:
Thank you Ms. Nexxala, Ms. Farel, and Mr. Blackshell for your feedback and thought; especially, Ms. Farel for your tip on exiting stations. So an immediate stop and redock would have been the best thing to do. I'll memorize that.
Another good idea would be to never dock in a lowsec station for which you do not have an "instawarp" location bookmarked along the station's undocking vector. They're not difficult to make, and while they involve a small time investment, they are worth the time spent in the amount of lives and ISK saved by their use - just be careful not to be probed down while in one or making one.


Oh, and I almost forgot to add that several types of space stations seem to have very short ranged tractor beams, putting you out of range for redocking purposes almost as soon as you land outside.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#16 - 2012-02-28 01:02:47 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Oh, and I almost forgot to add that several types of space stations seem to have very short ranged tractor beams, putting you out of range for redocking purposes almost as soon as you land outside.


Exactly why I suggested the use of "instawarp bookmarks". Should've mentioned it myself, heh.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#17 - 2012-02-28 18:22:57 UTC
I applaud your efforts Edaine. The cluster is a dark, blood-thirsty place however. If you'd like I can teach you some piloting tricks to escape blockades and "camps". As you mentioned, a warp core stabilizer would have been excellent; general rule of thumb for hauling in lowsec is to fit only as many cargo expanders as you absolutely need, and then fit out with as many warp core stabilizers as possible. Safety is a must, especially in this line of work.
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#18 - 2012-02-28 18:31:41 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
I applaud your efforts Edaine. The cluster is a dark, blood-thirsty place however. If you'd like I can teach you some piloting tricks to escape blockades and "camps". As you mentioned, a warp core stabilizer would have been excellent; general rule of thumb for hauling in lowsec is to fit only as many cargo expanders as you absolutely need, and then fit out with as many warp core stabilizers as possible. Safety is a must, especially in this line of work.


Thank you, Rek. It is really interesting that I had no problems at gates because I had cloaking but the station proximity got me. What do you think of using rigs to get my cargo hold expanded and then fitting two warp core stabilizer in my two low spots? I have a lot mining to do and time to plan it before I buy another Viator so I'm listening to ideas. Is there any module that can go in a medium slot to enhance safety? It only has one high slot, so that is taken with the cloak.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#19 - 2012-02-28 19:19:33 UTC
I have never used any warp core stabilizer mods on any of my blockade runners. It is totally pointless in low security space if you know what you are doing. It is impossible to destroy you near a station unless something really unexpected happens (but this can happen everywhere with any ship, independantly of everything you could do in regards to safety). It is also very hard to catch you at a gate due to your cloaking device, unless the gate itself is obstructed by a lot of garbage (which is too rare to be duely taken into consideration). In nullsec space for the first one and lowsec space for the second one, warp core stabilizers are anyway irrelevant against warp interdiction bubbles and heavy interdictors.
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#20 - 2012-02-28 19:23:58 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
I have never used any warp core stabilizer mods on any of my blockade runners. It is totally pointless in low security space if you know what you are doing. It is impossible to destroy you near a station unless something really unexpected happens (but this can happen everywhere with any ship, independantly of everything you could do in regards to safety). It is also very hard to catch you at a gate due to your cloaking device, unless the gate itself is obstructed by a lot of garbage (which is too rare to be duely taken into consideration). In nullsec space for the first one and lowsec space for the second one, warp core stabilizers are anyway irrelevant against warp interdiction bubbles and heavy interdictors.


Ms. Farel, do recommend inertial stabilizers? Should I have any jammers or any ECM of any kind?

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.

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