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Capacitor/Shield Flux Coils
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Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-02-23 18:22:44 UTC
Stupid forum didn't post my last post. I have no idea why, but it sometimes discards my posts.

Long story short, I did some math and the power diagnostic system is SUPERIOR IN EVERY WAY to any "Flux Coil" module. Flux coils also reduce the effectiveness of sibling modules and rigs (such as Cap Rechargers/Shield Rechargers). When I fit a Capacitor Flux Coil on my PVE Maelstrom, I noticed its cap-stability actually got WORSE (I had 3 Capacitor Control Circuits).

What gives?
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-02-23 18:29:54 UTC
It depends on your cap balance, they are better to get cap stable but will reduce your cap time when not.
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-02-23 18:34:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cindy Marco
I don't see a use for the cap flux coils ever.

T2 CPR 24%
Faction CPR 25%
Cap flux coil 2 26% -10% total cap

1% regen time is NOT worth 10% of total cap. The module really needs to be redesigned.

At least the shield flux coil provides a significant bonus over sprs, without killing cap regen. I wouldn't use one, but I could understand someone trying to make it work.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-02-23 18:36:28 UTC
But that's the thing, they're not even better at cap recharging...

Cap Flux Coil II:
-10% Max Cap
+26% Recharge

1*0.9*1.26 = 1.134

It overall increases your cap recharge by 13.4%


Power Diagnostic II:
+5% Max Cap
+8.5% Recharge

1*1.05*1.085 = 1.13925

It overall increases your cap recharge by 13.9%.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#5 - 2012-02-23 18:47:09 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
In my experience, I've found that CFCs are useless too, PDSes always seem to be better, always. And SFCs useless too.

(Fixed my post, I had commented on SPRs and CPRs because {C|S}FCs are so useless I apparently don't even acknowledge them subconsciously, lol)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#6 - 2012-02-23 18:49:04 UTC
This just in, Eve has useless modules! More on this, plus exclusive coverage of T2 plates, at 10.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ira Infernus
Knights-of-Cydonia
#7 - 2012-02-23 19:47:14 UTC
Cap Flux coils are well worth looking into. Stop EFT warrioring to get max cap stab out of something with everything running and look at how you actually fly the ship;

-When I ran L4's with a nightmare, I needed a way of flying capstab with guns and an afterburner running (coz I enjoy keeping optimum range, which an AB allows), but it was silly for me to use my mids (tracking comps and shield mods, aswell as the AB) for my cap issues, couldnt use a power relay because that hurts my shields, and even a PDU (which would even allow for a discharge rig) wouldnt work.

Story basicly goes; I needed pure capacitor regain with a cap hungry ship like the nightmare, no other module did the job except for the flux coil. (Yes it did hurt cap more when tank was running, but I could keep range/guns going, so barely had to use that)
Mona X
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-02-23 20:13:49 UTC
Ares Renton wrote:
Stupid forum didn't post my last post. I have no idea why, but it sometimes discards my posts.

Long story short, I did some math and the power diagnostic system is SUPERIOR IN EVERY WAY to any "Flux Coil" module. Flux coils also reduce the effectiveness of sibling modules and rigs (such as Cap Rechargers/Shield Rechargers). When I fit a Capacitor Flux Coil on my PVE Maelstrom, I noticed its cap-stability actually got WORSE (I had 3 Capacitor Control Circuits).


Penalty is well, penalized, but their bonus doesn't, so you can achieve some sick recharge if you have enough slots.
Better recharge and smaller overall cap than with faction CPRs (for fractiom of the price)? Looks like recipe for fast moving capitals.

I need new signature.
Kneebone
K-H Light Industries
#9 - 2012-02-23 20:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kneebone
As with all mods, you must look at the sum total instead of the specific mods. SFC's on their own may look like they suck ass, but when you combine them with other mods like extenders, purgers, and harders you still get a passive regen increase, but without the cap hit of SPR's. A barely cap stable Passive Drake may tank more with SPR's in the lows, but by switching to SFC's you lose the cap pentalty and gain the ability to perma run an AB. Or better yet use a combination to get the best result. An SFC will give you more of a boost to passive regen than a PDS if you are just using two mods in the lows. An SFC and an SPR will give you less than 2 SPR's, but more than 2 SFC's. You have varying levels of cap stability based on your mids. You do not need the extra power that the PDS provides in most stanrd Drake fits so you are wasting fitting power.

Changing out one PDS for one CFC in a build built around PDS's coudl likely screw you over, but if you take flux coils, pair them with other coils, and use semi conductor rigs in the rig slots you can end up with a stable tank. This combo is seen on people jumping into Ravens shooting for an XL stable tank. It's not the best, but it works.

The sum of the whole is greater than its parts?
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#10 - 2012-02-23 20:25:07 UTC
After thinking about it a bit, I think I've figured out atleast one of the core issues with CFCs (and SFCs).

In 99.9% of the situations (anything other than certain niche roles), the two stats of CFCs work against each other.

The core goal for cap mods is to increase your regen/second, that's what it boils down to. However, one of the stats directly boosts that and the other one directly hurts it. Look at the two stats:

Reduce capacitor regen time: This reduces the time that it takes to regen your cap, meaning that more cap/second is generated.

Reduce capacitor amount: This reduces the amount of cap, which means that less cap/second is generated.

See the issue?
Ezram Iena
CareBears Ltd.
#11 - 2012-02-23 20:25:19 UTC
Ares Renton wrote:
But that's the thing, they're not even better at cap recharging...

Cap Flux Coil II:
-10% Max Cap
+26% Recharge

1*0.9*1.26 = 1.134

It overall increases your cap recharge by 13.4%


Power Diagnostic II:
+5% Max Cap
+8.5% Recharge

1*1.05*1.085 = 1.13925

It overall increases your cap recharge by 13.9%.


You're doing it wrong.
26% recharge bonus is 1/(1-0.26) not 1•(1+0.26)
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-02-23 21:11:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
Ezram Iena wrote:
Ares Renton wrote:
But that's the thing, they're not even better at cap recharging...

Cap Flux Coil II:
-10% Max Cap
+26% Recharge

1*0.9*1.26 = 1.134

It overall increases your cap recharge by 13.4%


Power Diagnostic II:
+5% Max Cap
+8.5% Recharge

1*1.05*1.085 = 1.13925

It overall increases your cap recharge by 13.9%.


You're doing it wrong.
26% recharge bonus is 1/(1-0.26) not 1•(1+0.26)


~22% increase for the CFC vs a ~15% increase for the PDU.

But if you have other cap recharge mods/rigs (as I did), the CFC reduces their effectiveness. When you have enough mods/rigs to increase your cap regen to 175% (less, if you have multiple CFCs), the PDU is better. At that point, the CFC provides 1-2% faster regen, but reduces max cap by 10%, instead of increasing it by 5%, which probably outweighs the small advantage.

Not strictly useless as I thought. Still pretty crap though.
Ezram Iena
CareBears Ltd.
#13 - 2012-02-23 21:24:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezram Iena
Ares Renton wrote:

~22% increase for the CFC vs a ~15% increase for the PDU.

But if you have other cap recharge mods/rigs (as I did), the CFC reduces their effectiveness. When you have enough mods/rigs to increase your cap regen to 175% (less, if you have multiple CFCs), the PDU is better. At that point, the CFC provides 1-2% faster regen, but reduces max cap by 10%, instead of increasing it by 5%, which probably outweighs the small advantage.

Not strictly useless as I thought. Still pretty crap though.


Pretty crap, agreed, but they do have their uses; consider this abomination (capstable w. level 5 skills, a CC and a CR implant):

[Dominix Navy Issue, Omg so wrong]
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

X-Large Shield Booster II
X-Large Shield Booster II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

[empty high slot] * 6

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Something like this is just not possible with PDR's.

Edit: Could even upgrade the boosters to Gist X-type for even more heresy..
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-02-23 21:42:23 UTC
Yea cap flux coils is only for active shield tanking and when you really struggle for cap, otherwise always use power relays or diagnostics.
Alberik
Eusebius Corporation
#15 - 2012-02-23 21:50:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alberik
[Raven, Permaboost Mission Cruise]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Shield Boost Amplifier II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
X-Large Shield Booster II

Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5


one of my first mission fittings, runs nearly permanent (28mins). dont mind the invuls, im lazy on changing hardeners ;)
but i must confess its one of the rare uses for cfc

/edit cpc->cfc
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#16 - 2012-02-23 22:00:31 UTC
Alberik wrote:
one of the rare uses for cpc

You mean CFC.

And yes, the CFC is very useless.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Alberik
Eusebius Corporation
#17 - 2012-02-23 22:52:20 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Alberik wrote:
one of the rare uses for cpc

You mean CFC.

And yes, the CFC is very useless.


sure ;)
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#18 - 2012-02-23 23:06:44 UTC
You keep leaving out the fact that CPR has shield boost penalty whereas CFC doesn't.
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-02-23 23:30:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cindy Marco
Ezram Iena wrote:
Ares Renton wrote:

~22% increase for the CFC vs a ~15% increase for the PDU.

But if you have other cap recharge mods/rigs (as I did), the CFC reduces their effectiveness. When you have enough mods/rigs to increase your cap regen to 175% (less, if you have multiple CFCs), the PDU is better. At that point, the CFC provides 1-2% faster regen, but reduces max cap by 10%, instead of increasing it by 5%, which probably outweighs the small advantage.

Not strictly useless as I thought. Still pretty crap though.


Pretty crap, agreed, but they do have their uses; consider this abomination (capstable w. level 5 skills, a CC and a CR implant):

[Dominix Navy Issue, Omg so wrong]
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

X-Large Shield Booster II
X-Large Shield Booster II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

[empty high slot] * 6

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Something like this is just not possible with PDR's.

Edit: Could even upgrade the boosters to Gist X-type for even more heresy..


Which caps out in just over a minute, and dies to neuts in record speed. Or you can use CPRs and perma run everything, have 80 more cpu, and have higher cap regen even after dropping a CCC for a shield rig.

[Dominix Navy Issue, Domi]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

X-Large Shield Booster II
X-Large Shield Booster II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Core Defence Operational Solidifier II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

So yeah, still worse than CPRs, even for shield tanks.


Pookoko wrote:
You keep leaving out the fact that CPR has shield boost penalty whereas CFC doesn't.

The penalty is stacking penalized, the cap recharge isn't.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#20 - 2012-02-24 00:36:56 UTC
mxzf wrote:
After thinking about it a bit, I think I've figured out atleast one of the core issues with CFCs (and SFCs).

In 99.9% of the situations (anything other than certain niche roles), the two stats of CFCs work against each other.

The core goal for cap mods is to increase your regen/second, that's what it boils down to. However, one of the stats directly boosts that and the other one directly hurts it. Look at the two stats:

Reduce capacitor regen time: This reduces the time that it takes to regen your cap, meaning that more cap/second is generated.

Reduce capacitor amount: This reduces the amount of cap, which means that less cap/second is generated.

See the issue?


That's pretty much it. The trick of course is to use CFCs in quantity as already noted. That's pretty much all they're good for though.

As for SFCs.... I think Pottsey (does Pottsey still exist?) used to play with them on occasion for some of her wonkier passive fits but even she admitted the end result looked a lot like shield ping pong. And was almost always better left to SPRs and PDUs despite their ancillary issues.
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