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EVE Online ITERATIONS: Re-elect Seleene to CSM 7

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Author
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2012-02-22 16:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Do you think it's time for an industry expansion/iteration as a real priority ?

So much is broken, it's hard to even begin to come up with ideas to fix it without breaking the game entirely.

.

Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
#182 - 2012-02-22 17:49:58 UTC
Thank you for your hardwork in CCP and in CSM. It is truly appreciated.
I can't see you not getting back on the player council.

When you do, please try to reign back on the appearance of unmitigated smugness.

CCP are employers in the leisure industry. They make their bread out of people with time and money to waste.
They may have made some disastrous PR errors in promoting and developing their game, but big H's bottom line is good because he has made some really tough real life decisions.

So go ahead and promote the much needed changes that you would like to highlight. Just modify your tone a tad will you.

Thanks.
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
#183 - 2012-02-22 18:16:25 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Do you think it's time for an industry expansion/iteration as a real priority ?

So much is broken, it's hard to even begin to come up with ideas to fix it without breaking the game entirely.


Basically, when it comes to how I would like to see CCP use their resources in the near future, the top three things I would like to see happen are:

1.) Fix / finish null sec sov

2.) Improve Factional Warfare and life in low-sec

3.) A full blown industrial expansion

My reasons for that order are that I very much want to see CCP iterate on and complete the first two systems that have been lingering in apathy for years now. More importantly, I don't want CCP touching #3 until they can literally put a full expansion's worth of resources into it. It is, as you say, not an easy task. Everything in EVE springs from the way we mine, build and trade.

If you read the post I made here, you'll see that this is something I've spoken of before. Specifically:

"I've always felt that a heavily Industry-themed expansion is LONG overdue. I'd like to see what would happen if the fuzzy bears at CCP were allowed to just go wild for a full release cycle. Every good PVPer in EVE understands the basics of industry and market PVP."

I want to see everyone happily blowing each other up and then I would like to see an industry expansion that allows us to invent / build new and fun ways to keep the violence going strong. I'm a builder at heart. When I play strategy games like Total Annihilation or the old Master of Orion stuff, even Shogun2, I tend to work toward building things as big and 'upgraded' as possible before sending my armies out into the world and conquering it. I like making something out of nothing, big things out of small things, etc... In EVE, I have probably spent just as much time building everything from cruise missiles to Titans over the years just so I could say I'd done it.

I'll bullet point a few obvious things and they should be familiar as everyone has been screaming about them for years:

  • New, dead regions of space waiting to be built-up / exploited

  • Region-specific resources

  • Dynamic resource allocation

  • Improved mining / Comet mining / planetary ring mining, etc...
  • (as a caveat to this, I'd like to see mining become something that requires player interaction to some extent so bots are taken out of the equation as much as possible)

  • New probing / scanning mechanics

  • Finite resources of rare resources (moon goo)

  • Massive scale construction (stargates, etc...)

This is stuff just off the top of my head so don't treat it as anything even remotely resembling the beginning or end of what I'd want to see. One of the things I enjoyed most about being at CCP and working on Apocrypha was creating Wormholes. The sense of wonder and danger had been missing from EVE for so long; for the first time since the beginning of the game, we managed to re-capture some of that feeling, while also adding new stuff (T3) that made the risk worthwhile. I would challenge CCP to do that on an even larger scale.

Fix the fighting and then give us new and improved things to fight over! Cool

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!

Kotori
Sacred Templars
#184 - 2012-02-22 18:50:23 UTC
/signed
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2012-02-22 19:07:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
One of the major obstacles to mining corporations moving into 0.0 is the culture.

Can you imagine an alliance like PL for instance or an alliance with a culture LIKE Noir (they obviously don't own space, but I'm using the PVP culture as an example), bringing on board a medium sized mining corporation?

Of course not. There's nothing in it for them, no reason to do so. It would be a blemish on the killboard every month, and a sub-culture in their alliance that would never quite fit in.

The problem is that mining corps specifically don't have anything to bring to the table.

Another problem we have and are currently trying to deal with is the moon goo issue.

I've seen in the CSM minutes the references to it and many others have spoken out about it.

I wonder if t2 moon goo couldn't replace the current AWFUL (noone wants to mine spodzilla for days on end) grav sites?

This would bring a much needed change to the moon mining industry and perception of miners sitting around mining all day. And finally create some use for grav sites that just aren't worth it right now.

This IS just an idea, but I wonder if it isn't worth looking into further.

Obviously botting and other issues still need to be worked out, but this could also make available the current t2 hull market which is just not worth getting into industry-wise for many people that don't own BPO's or Tech moons.

Any help appreciated. If you can help on some of these issues you'll get my vote(s).

.

Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2012-02-22 19:35:49 UTC
Why not make mining less interactive? The other two big forms of "raw" resource extraction (moon goo and plantationplanetary interaction) are both fairly passive, and the work and skills lie in getting access to the resources in the first place or in setting up your extraction system in an optimal way. These require both character skills and player skills, including planning and research, in which you do your initial setup and then go do something more engaging while the system you've designed and built performs in a way the rewards the initial work you put into it (or not, if you forgot that pesky 23rd mouse click in PI).

Asteroid mining seems like the odd man out. What if mining ships were things that you attach to asteroids, set up in such and such a way for optimal resource extraction, and then left them alone to do their work? Give them some kind of timer/reinforcement doohickey thing so dislodging and/or looting them takes some effort and coordination, and free miners from the tyranny of the laser while giving people more things to fight over. All the mining skills would still be just as valuable, but would come into play in the setup process.

The next step, of course, would be to let the biggest mining ships act as mass drivers that can be used to move small asteroids and drop them on top of someone's PI network. Twisted
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2012-02-23 14:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
See this is what I mean about CSM candidates.

There is a general forumula for saying they wish to be heard on particular subjects, but little in the way of actual details they wish to bring to the table - in case someone can at the last minute bring forth a pee shooter and fill their details with holes.

To be honest with you I see little value in mining comets or planetary rings at present.

We need the mining that is currently in the game rebuilt or iterated upon to bring about better incomes and more fun than is presently available. Simply adding new mechanics is just another project CCP will inevitably get wrong or get "not quite right" and then not iterate upon. - leaving us possibly right back where we are now.

I'd really like an answer as to how adding new mechanics will effect PVP cultures of alliances and welcome the industrial core into 0.0 rather than resenting their presence (as is the usual 0.0 culture currently).

Are you putting forward a plan to move t2 moon goo to these planetary rings? Or will that just be another asteroid belt ?

Presently figures are said to be something like 70% of minerals coming out of drone regions, do you consider a cut of 70% minerals will just "fix the problem" for miners in the long run as Mittani seems to continue repeating?

Mining of course is only one factor of industry that requires iteration, but surely you have some thoughts?

.

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
#188 - 2012-02-23 15:02:56 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Mining of course is only one factor of industry that requires iteration, but surely you have some thoughts?


I do, m8, but I'm on the road ATM. Thanks for being persistent about this and I will gladly give a proper response later today. Smile

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!

Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2012-02-23 17:16:31 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
Mining of course is only one factor of industry that requires iteration, but surely you have some thoughts?


I do, m8, but I'm on the road ATM. Thanks for being persistent about this and I will gladly give a proper response later today. Smile


No worries, thanks for any time.

Personally, I'd just like to know the light at the end of the tunnel isn't just ANOTHER oncoming train.

.

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
#190 - 2012-02-24 05:15:07 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
To be honest with you I see little value in mining comets or planetary rings at present.


Wouldn't that depend on how it was implemented and what the benefits were? You asked, "Are you putting forward a plan to move t2 moon goo to these planetary rings? Or will that just be another asteroid belt ?"

I think that anything added such as rings or comets should add new variables to the whole. For example, I've long been a proponent of finite, dynamically spawning sources of moon goo and other (yet to be introduced?) industrial rarities. I would like to see trade encouraged by region specific resources that may or may not be permanent depending on type. I believe if a miner is brave enough to enter a dangerous area that he should have the opportunity to 'strike it rich'.

Revolution Rising wrote:
Presently figures are said to be something like 70% of minerals coming out of drone regions, do you consider a cut of 70% minerals will just "fix the problem" for miners in the long run as Mittani seems to continue repeating?


No, it sounds like a band-aid to a larger problem to me.

Revolution Rising wrote:
We need the mining that is currently in the game rebuilt or iterated upon to bring about better incomes and more fun than is presently available. Simply adding new mechanics is just another project CCP will inevitably get wrong or get "not quite right" and then not iterate upon. - leaving us possibly right back where we are now.


In terms of OMG THEY WILL **** THIS UP TOO!!!!, I've been where you are, m8. However, I think those times are behind us and I'm willing to give the new Senior Producer and his team a proper chance before I summarily dismiss their potential efforts.

Revolution Rising wrote:
I'd really like an answer as to how adding new mechanics will effect PVP cultures of alliances and welcome the industrial core into 0.0 rather than resenting their presence (as is the usual 0.0 culture currently).


This is a much different question that the others you are asking in that you're actually talking about trying to alter the psychology of null sec play styles based upon possible shifts in resource availability and / or new mechanics. The biggest issue I see for getting NEW, dedicated industrial people into 0.0 is that the majority of the people there already have innumerable industrial alts trained up and ready to roll. The only way I could see it working is if a major series of changes took place (like an entire Industrial expansion) that made players have to make an actual choice in how they spent their time and mental focus - do you want to spend the majority of your time blowing **** up or running the arm that allows you to do so?

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!

Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2012-02-24 06:40:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Thanks for the replies. I'm definitely considering voting your way.

As to the below stuff:

Seleene wrote:

Revolution Rising wrote:
I'd really like an answer as to how adding new mechanics will effect PVP cultures of alliances and welcome the industrial core into 0.0 rather than resenting their presence (as is the usual 0.0 culture currently).


This is a much different question that the others you are asking in that you're actually talking about trying to alter the psychology of null sec play styles based upon possible shifts in resource availability and / or new mechanics. The biggest issue I see for getting NEW, dedicated industrial people into 0.0 is that the majority of the people there already have innumerable industrial alts trained up and ready to roll. The only way I could see it working is if a major series of changes took place (like an entire Industrial expansion) that made players have to make an actual choice in how they spent their time and mental focus - do you want to spend the majority of your time blowing **** up or running the arm that allows you to do so?


What I'm getting at here is - consider for instance SRP - I just came from BDEAL where SRP was a joke to be honest. The fact for them is however that they just cant afford a reasonable SRP. Then if you go on the other hand and check out goons SRP. They cover all manner of things far beyond what most alliances can, do or ever will. As an example if you're a Lachesis pilot with a faction point, the goons SRP will actually get you a PROFIT on the loss of your ship.

If upon moving t2 moon goo from moons to say comets or belts, those funds dry up, SRP would have to be covered by having that industrial arm. Presently also t2 ship production is beyond most people without technetium or t2 BPO's. This also might change allowing industrialists who traditionally are kept in empire inventing modules ONLY to expand operations to 0.0 and include ship hulls.

This would change that "PVPers only" culture imo, as people would start to see the value of the industrial side of their alliance.

I also noticed in the minutes a small line suggesting giving invention bonuses to inventors in 0.0, this would also fit within the model - allowing smaller alliances that can't project power to have an SRP and even make a profit - god forbid - in line with the number of PVP pilots they have and be better able to defend themselves without NECESSARILY requiring the napfest that is currently used to do so.

I really don't see a downside apart from the fears of the few who currently hold these moons. And properly implemented with the CCP beancounters' help I can't imagine too many saying no.

Frankly I'd like to see this kind of thing (barring any unforeseen holes in the logic) implemented as fast as humanly possible - things in industry need to change, and now.

.

Killer Gandry
Fenghuang Corporation
#192 - 2012-02-25 02:02:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Killer Gandry
So here I was, checking on my favourite CSM candidate and guess what, again on the wrong page.

Vote for a more evolved EVE, more fun and challanging for everyone. Vote Seleene.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2012-02-25 03:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Marzetti
Maybe you can do something about forums eating posts because AAAAARGH I just lost what I thought was an excellent post (all my posts are excellent). So I'm just going to shorten it up.

Is there a good reason why outposts cannot be factories and refineries? Not just a few manufacturing slots or a 10-30% refinery, but the full blown deal, or multiple outposts in the same system just like you'd find in empire. I am a small scale nullsec producer and the logistical problems of getting minerals to factories to produce anything bigger than a frigate are outrageously out of proportion to the reward, especially when hulls can just be imported by jump freighter. This, in my opinion, is the greatest obstacle to nullsec industry really taking root. To me, it looks like CCP deliberately made nullsec production much, much more difficult than empire production, to the point of completely hobbling it.

In my opinion, if you just let good factories and good refineries exist in the same system (or even better, the same station), that will be enough to really ignite nullsec industry. This is really the best that could be done for it, and it doesn't take a full blown industrial expansion. As it is, industrial producers combined with jump freighter importers have a huge advantage over local industry in nullsec. If that's the intention of CCP then it's been executed really well, but I have to wonder why.
Cassius Hawkeye
Body Count Inc.
#194 - 2012-02-25 12:53:17 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Maybe you can do something about forums eating posts because AAAAARGH I just lost what I thought was an excellent post (all my posts are excellent). So I'm just going to shorten it up.

Is there a good reason why outposts cannot be factories and refineries? Not just a few manufacturing slots or a 10-30% refinery, but the full blown deal, or multiple outposts in the same system just like you'd find in empire. I am a small scale nullsec producer and the logistical problems of getting minerals to factories to produce anything bigger than a frigate are outrageously out of proportion to the reward, especially when hulls can just be imported by jump freighter. This, in my opinion, is the greatest obstacle to nullsec industry really taking root. To me, it looks like CCP deliberately made nullsec production much, much more difficult than empire production, to the point of completely hobbling it.

In my opinion, if you just let good factories and good refineries exist in the same system (or even better, the same station), that will be enough to really ignite nullsec industry. This is really the best that could be done for it, and it doesn't take a full blown industrial expansion. As it is, industrial producers combined with jump freighter importers have a huge advantage over local industry in nullsec. If that's the intention of CCP then it's been executed really well, but I have to wonder why.


TBH - that is still an excellent post. Hi-sec industry has many of these advantages + no risk. 0.0 industry has so many risks, and no combined advantages.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#195 - 2012-02-25 13:09:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Revolution Rising wrote:


I really don't see a downside apart from the fears of the few who currently hold these moons...


Just a quick interjection here: even those who do hold tech moons think they're ridiculous and are advocating a nerf/rebalance/rework of some kind. Specifically including goons .

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Thodoros
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#196 - 2012-02-25 16:28:06 UTC
The answer is too obvious thats why people cannot see that is right there in front of them.
I know Seleene from 2005 since i took Eve online seriously because all other games were totaly crap and Eve online was a real challenge of a game and very hard to learn.
If someone knew Seleene from early on in game they would never trust him.
Look who is associated within the game!
He was the CEO of BodyCount and leader of MC the notorious mercenary alliance that was working hand in hand with BoB but they had never aknoledge that in public or in the old CAOD was pure denial.
I bet he knew about the T20 incident and never said anything about it.
He took alot of advantage by know the inside out of the game and of course he and his alliance was taking advantage of the Capital race. They had years of exploiting the South and the Blood Raiders loots and manipulating the market with the Megacyte ore. Now he is in the PL as their playstyle suit him well enough.
Why should i vote for him?
How can someone trust him?
You see Seleene the majority of people dont know you and thats why they voted for you.
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
#197 - 2012-02-25 16:34:13 UTC
Thodoros wrote:
stuff

The tinfoil is strong in this one

WTB : An image in my signature

1Of9
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#198 - 2012-02-25 16:42:23 UTC
Thodoros wrote:
The answer is too obvious thats why people cannot see that is right there in front of them.
I know Seleene from 2005 since i took Eve online seriously because all other games were totaly crap and Eve online was a real challenge of a game and very hard to learn.
If someone knew Seleene from early on in game they would never trust him.
Look who is associated within the game!
He was the CEO of BodyCount and leader of MC the notorious mercenary alliance that was working hand in hand with BoB but they had never aknoledge that in public or in the old CAOD was pure denial.
I bet he knew about the T20 incident and never said anything about it.
He took alot of advantage by know the inside out of the game and of course he and his alliance was taking advantage of the Capital race. They had years of exploiting the South and the Blood Raiders loots and manipulating the market with the Megacyte ore. Now he is in the PL as their playstyle suit him well enough.
Why should i vote for him?
How can someone trust him?
You see Seleene the majority of people dont know you and thats why they voted for you.


u mad bro? It's easier to tell the next guy in front of you he have a splinter in his eye, when you cannot see the TREE you have in yours!

Your alliance leaders that you worked so hard for so long openly admitted to RMTing for a long time, not to mention the D2 debacle over the moon goo, helping goons left and right and you come here and accuse seleene of what? been a active eve player, caring for eve in general?

So what he's CEO of BDCi ? a corp that existed even before your ever heard of the word "eve"?

You look mad ......

Glassback
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2012-02-25 16:46:36 UTC
Thodoros wrote:
They had years of exploiting the South and the Blood Raiders loots and manipulating the market with the Megacyte ore.


Confirming the true MC stood for Mining Coalition .
Cassius Hawkeye
Body Count Inc.
#200 - 2012-02-25 16:50:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Hawkeye
Quote:
How can someone trust him?


I wouldn't trust him as a wingman in COD / BF3 (he is useless at it). Lol

Quote:
He took alot of advantage by know the inside out of the game and of course he and his alliance was taking advantage of the Capital race.


It is indeed a crime to lead a successful alliance (ultimately to it's doom!), and take advantage of tactics to win. Infact is is far superior to be 'average', not compete to win, and be a total unknown. Being successful (even for a limited time) is so not fair.