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Expanding EvE with out adding solar systems.

First post
Author
beor oranes
The Capitalist Protectorate
Mad Scientists
#41 - 2011-09-20 08:05:29 UTC
The best way to make Eve bigger is to make the systems more interesting. At the moment there is only Stations, Gates and Belts (plus the occasional plex and exploration site). If we had comets and other things to interact with in the system people would find the system more interesting.

Most systems are pretty much empty, especially in highsec. If you don't mine or do missions 99% of systems in highsec offer you no reason to stop in them. If you could somehow make more systems useful for people to stop in them and spend time then the universe would feel bigger.

I don't think slowing down warp would actually help, it would just make moving around a pain and would mean people just afk-auto-pilot more. Plus you aren't really sorting out the issue you are just slowing movement down, people would still have no reason to stop and stay in a system they would just spend more time traversing said system.


Daedalus II wrote:
I've been thinking about something like this:

* Reduce the acceleration time when going into warp (make it more snappy, like on the login screen).
* Reduce max warp speed a little to compensate.
* Make it so you don't warp through planets and other stuff by having the warp system pick out "redirection nodes" to where the ship will warp. A "redirection node" is like a road crossing where you slow down, realign in normal speed, and warp again, automatically. I imagine a typical station-to-gate warp to encompass 3-4 such realignments.

These realignment spots would be fairly similar for ships that travel the same route and would be a prime location to set up pirate camps (the camps can then be avoided by not taking the obvious route gate-to-gate).

I think this will give a feeling of a bit larger space, without necessarily making travel times very much higher, but instead you spend more time realigning at nodes. It will give you a better feeling for the space you are in instead of just blasting past it at max speed.


This is an interesting idea, it would put places in systems that you would encounter other people, which would make space a bit more interesting for sure.

It would have to be implemented so that there were no choke points that couldn't be avoided. For example; a system has a gate a long way from anything else and there is only one 'redirection node' that you can take to get to anywhere in the system, or that there was a particular node that was within the system that you had to cross to make it to most/all of the other nodes. If you had to drop out at this node then people would just camp there and kill anyone as there would be no way to avoid it. The way round it would either have to be that there is more than one node you can warp too or that you were randomly dropped on the grid of said node and warp bubbles didn't pull you in. It definitely has some good points but then like everything it could be exploited very easily if not done correctly.


My personal favourite that I have said before is to surround all the Empires with lowsec regions, so it would impossible to travel from Amarr to Jita without crossing some lowsec (even if it was only a system or two). As long as there wasn't only one or two routes but lots this would mean that you could make Eve feel bigger as it would be a challenge to go from one Empire to another, it would boost regional trade as it would be easier just to go to your local hub rather than just tripping to Jita. In the lowsec between Empires you would get more people living there to pirate and anti-pirate. People could set-up protection services to cross the lowsec or more freight companies to transport your goods.
Goti fase
Faulcon de Lazy
#42 - 2011-09-20 11:59:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Goti fase
Well, my idea is not really on topic but I don't like the whole warping through planets things myself. It is probably really complicated to do and I have no idea how it would be possible but if you could just see your ship altering direction in warp to go around planets, moons, suns , etc. That would be good...

Anyway, in general I like how large everything is now, besides we are supposed to be flying super advanced space ships. Even minmitar ships are a million years ahead of what we have now so why should space feel big when you should be able to pop to the next solar system for a pint of milk?

Maybe make solar systems a bit more cluttered? Maybe instead of having asteroid fields like we have now we could have an asteroid belt similar to the one between Mars and Jupiter? Or a Kuiper belt/Oort cloud? With multiple warp in points around the system but when you get there the roids just go on forever... More deadspace/COSMOS type areas? Throw in some Dwarf planets, meteors that come and go (they could be mined by POSes/PI type stuff perhaps).


EDIT - I keep thinking up new things now...
David Xavier
The Capsuleers of Unconscious Thought
#43 - 2011-09-20 12:07:50 UTC
Erik Finnegan wrote:
David Xavier wrote:
A better solution would be to give the players the option:
...
- Just target the other gate for example, but be prepared that if your path would lead through any solid object or strong gravitational field you will drop out of warp near them (for safety reasons).

Interesting. Choice is always good.

But : how would you move to a point then, which again has a "clear" path to the destination and allows to warp again ? Imagine you drop out of warp at point blank in front of a planet. Now you will have to travel a distance greater than the radius of the planet in order steer clear. At impulse speed ... unthinkable in a freighter.

Or you warp to any other celestial object in a 180° hemisphere "behind" you. In front of you is the planet blocking the path. With some bad luck, the only other charted object would be the point you departed from ( in a very empty solar system that is ). There might not even be a moon to warp to in order to allow a clear warp to the original destination.

...


Nice answer to the 2nd, lazy option. And it shows that either I am terribly bad in writing down my ideas or you can not read.

I don't suffer from insanity.. I enjoy it !

Goti fase
Faulcon de Lazy
#44 - 2011-09-20 12:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Goti fase
Goti fase wrote:
Well, my idea is not really on topic but I don't like the whole warping through planets things myself. It is probably really complicated to do and I have no idea how it would be possible but if you could just see your ship altering direction in warp to go around planets, moons, suns , etc. That would be good...

Anyway, in general I like how large everything is now, besides we are supposed to be flying super advanced space ships. Even minmitar ships are a million years ahead of what we have now so why should space feel big when you should be able to pop to the next solar system for a pint of milk?

Maybe make solar systems a bit more cluttered? Maybe instead of having asteroid fields like we have now we could have an asteroid belt similar to the one between Mars and Jupiter? Or a Kuiper belt/Oort cloud? With multiple warp in points around the system but when you get there the roids just go on forever... More deadspace/COSMOS type areas? Throw in some Dwarf planets, meteors that come and go (they could be mined by POSes/PI type stuff perhaps).


EDIT - I keep thinking up new things now...



D'oh, sorry I pressed quote instead of edit :(
Macmuelli
No Star Michellin but Chef Foundation
#45 - 2011-09-20 17:23:19 UTC
Kupier belts + Oorth clouds, and player builded acceleration gates to cover the long distance and reduce the warp time.

The numbers of acceleration gates could be limited, if they where only possible to anchore if u have setup a Pos.

The Ooorth cloud should be an area, where concords response on pirate attacks is pretty low. It would give this kind of activity a timeframe to do its buisness within empire space.
Probally disruption sattelites, which stop the signal to concord.

Acceleration gates, could be placed like a chain, with a special fuel out of probally new resources( aurora borealis- harvestet particles from planet rings etc...)
New ship types, which jump this sattelites in his postions to anchor them.
New ships, which make it possible to hack acceleration gates, to use them for pirate buisness.
New ship types for harvesting new resources.

It could increase the low and high sec.
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
#46 - 2011-09-20 21:01:24 UTC
David Xavier wrote:
Erik Finnegan wrote:
But ... you warp to any other celestial object in a 180° hemisphere "behind" you. In front of you is the planet blocking the path. With some bad luck, the only other charted object would be the point you departed from ( in a very empty solar system that is ). There might not even be a moon to warp to in order to allow a clear warp to the original destination.
Nice answer to the 2nd, lazy option. And it shows that either I am terribly bad in writing down my ideas or you can not read.

No, it is me who cannot write. I wanted to point out a problem in the lazy option. Imagine there are only three objects in the solar system : origin, the sun, destination -- and they are all in one line. Then "lazy" does not work as there would not be another warp target once you drop out of warp in front of the sun.

Prolly not a great restriction, but needs to be thought of.
Alberio
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#47 - 2011-09-20 22:22:21 UTC
beor oranes wrote:

My personal favourite that I have said before is to surround all the Empires with lowsec regions, so it would impossible to travel from Amarr to Jita without crossing some lowsec (even if it was only a system or two). As long as there wasn't only one or two routes but lots this would mean that you could make Eve feel bigger as it would be a challenge to go from one Empire to another, it would boost regional trade as it would be easier just to go to your local hub rather than just tripping to Jita. In the lowsec between Empires you would get more people living there to pirate and anti-pirate. People could set-up protection services to cross the lowsec or more freight companies to transport your goods.


I saw this idea posted elsewhere, and think it's a good one.

Perhaps this could be tied into Factional Warfare, as a method to address some of the issues with that. For example:

1) Create lowsec borders between empires.
2) These borders become Factional Warfare contested zones.
3) Holding the system makes it "highsec", and loads special agents which can only be used with a high faction standing of the holding empire. A contested system becomes "lowsec", and removes all agents.

An example:

A lowsec border system between Caldari and Gallente is created. The Caldari State Protectorate move in, and take over the system. The system becomes High Sec, and some valuable, Caldari-only agents move in. The Gallente FDU decides they can't have this, and contests the area. The system becomes low-sec, and the agents despawn. After a fight which lasts a few days, the Gallente wind up victorious, and claim ownership of the system. Some valuable, high-paying Gallente-only agents spawn, and the cycle continues.

This could generate some fun interaction as it makes for interesting geopolitical play:

1) When "Peace breaks out", it would increase trade between Factions. HIghsec routes would remain the same as they are now, and you could get to Jita just fine.

2) When War breaks out, borders shut down and resources from one Empire to another become harder to come by as the trip between Empires is blocked by higher-risk lowsec areas. People are forced to go to local trade-hubs and deal with it, or make a run for the border (or across it).

3) Faction Militias would have an incentive to take and keep systems.

4) Some pirate corporations may be incentivized to keep systems contested, in order to keep the lowsec regions for themselves. I could see a region of constantly changing alliances, backstabbing, shenanigans, and lots of treachery and skullduggery here.

Mirima Thurander
#48 - 2011-09-21 00:25:28 UTC
Alberio wrote:
beor oranes wrote:

My personal favourite that I have said before is to surround all the Empires with lowsec regions, so it would impossible to travel from Amarr to Jita without crossing some lowsec (even if it was only a system or two). As long as there wasn't only one or two routes but lots this would mean that you could make Eve feel bigger as it would be a challenge to go from one Empire to another, it would boost regional trade as it would be easier just to go to your local hub rather than just tripping to Jita. In the lowsec between Empires you would get more people living there to pirate and anti-pirate. People could set-up protection services to cross the lowsec or more freight companies to transport your goods.


I saw this idea posted elsewhere, and think it's a good one.

Perhaps this could be tied into Factional Warfare, as a method to address some of the issues with that. For example:

1) Create lowsec borders between empires.
2) These borders become Factional Warfare contested zones.
3) Holding the system makes it "highsec", and loads special agents which can only be used with a high faction standing of the holding empire. A contested system becomes "lowsec", and removes all agents.

An example:

A lowsec border system between Caldari and Gallente is created. The Caldari State Protectorate move in, and take over the system. The system becomes High Sec, and some valuable, Caldari-only agents move in. The Gallente FDU decides they can't have this, and contests the area. The system becomes low-sec, and the agents despawn. After a fight which lasts a few days, the Gallente wind up victorious, and claim ownership of the system. Some valuable, high-paying Gallente-only agents spawn, and the cycle continues.

This could generate some fun interaction as it makes for interesting geopolitical play:

1) When "Peace breaks out", it would increase trade between Factions. HIghsec routes would remain the same as they are now, and you could get to Jita just fine.

2) When War breaks out, borders shut down and resources from one Empire to another become harder to come by as the trip between Empires is blocked by higher-risk lowsec areas. People are forced to go to local trade-hubs and deal with it, or make a run for the border (or across it).

3) Faction Militias would have an incentive to take and keep systems.

4) Some pirate corporations may be incentivized to keep systems contested, in order to keep the lowsec regions for themselves. I could see a region of constantly changing alliances, backstabbing, shenanigans, and lots of treachery and skullduggery here.


Im not saying its a bad idea, BUT

As much as this sounds EPIC it would end up as a you get it Sunday Monday and Friday we get it the rest of the week,
or we get X systems you get Y systems.

The NAPs of null show that to be what would happen, unless faction war people are full of blood lust and murder, then your idea should work just fine.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.

Angelica Bianca
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2011-09-21 00:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Bianca
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Expanding EvE with out adding space.

So I wanna see your ideas for ways to make space bigger with out adding more systems.




I think the OP has some great ideas for general system changes that could help make EVE seem bigger. I think a bigger problem is the amount of space we currently have that's not worth much, namely lowsec. I'm just spouting this off and haven't really had a chance to formulate suggestions so bear with me.

Lowsec, as it stands now, is nothing more than a place in between highsec and 0.0...a place to avoid. Aside from roams and piracy lowsec doesn't really do much for us. There is no incentive to get people out there. PI, moon mining, asteroid mining, or missions; none of them provide a real incentive to get people out to lowsec to work and play. What we need is something special that will draw non-pirates out there. Better wormholes? Better ore? More lucrative missions? As it stands now it takes a fleet just to stay safe and the smaller corps don't have the resources to dedicate and the bigger corps would rather head to a sov holding 0.0 alliance. Non-sov NPC 0.0 has appeal if we could bring that appeal to lowsec we'd be in business. Perhaps converting some lowsec to NPC 0.0. That would be easily justifiable in terms of story and lore and wouldn't seem like it came out of left field. Just some food for thought. Sorry that ended up more of a rant than a suggestion.

-Angie
el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
#50 - 2011-09-21 01:35:10 UTC
Casual observation: JCs made the galaxy seem a lot smaller, at least to me. As long as pilots are able to jump daily from one corner of the galaxy to another, the perceived size seems less imposing. I'm not saying changes to JCs are in order ... just commenting.

To contribute to the thread: I agree that the majority of systems, especially in low and null, lack incentive for development. That's something we've been telling CCP for years. Additionally, 99% of every system (often trillions of cubic kilometers) are empty unused space that we use only to warp through. Utilizing the space between gates, stations, belts, and moons - in some fashion - would make interstellar travel possibly more adventurous. More/expanded gate rats? Changing bubble mechanics so that they can pull people out of warp in the middle of a system? Or as mentioned by others, warping around, instead of through, celestial objects?
Alberio
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#51 - 2011-09-21 01:53:34 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:

Im not saying its a bad idea, BUT

As much as this sounds EPIC it would end up as a you get it Sunday Monday and Friday we get it the rest of the week,
or we get X systems you get Y systems.

The NAPs of null show that to be what would happen, unless faction war people are full of blood lust and murder, then your idea should work just fine.


This is a good point, though I think I would disagree with the idea that it would automatically turn into an organized NAP fest. I feel that the people that get involved into Factional Warfare ideally (or at least initially) get involved specifically to fight wars, conquer territory, PVP, and blow the vile enemies of their empire out of the stars.

Holding territory should bring "Good Things(tm)" to your Team, and be "Really Bad(tm)" for the opposing team. The current FW system is not set up for this, but it could be. And though this isn't a thread about how to "Fix" factional warfare, tying in those fixes with ideas posted in this thread already might bring about some of the changes the OP is looking for: namely making EVE seem "bigger" without adding too much "space".

Some ideas which may work to address the NAP issue could be:

1) Work with an Incursion-type system, in which systems on the borders of Faction spaces get randomly invaded by the opposing Faction. This would be game-driven, and so out of the hands of players.

2) Change the way Militia's get paid. Rather than being paid per mission completion, Militias should be paid giant sums of money based on how much territory they hold, and for how long. Perhaps it's something like: 1M * Militia Rank * # of Systems Held * Hours Held.

Some method of of preventing players from all joining the Amarr empire (or whatever) and just taking and holding Systems to bank up cash might need to be devised. Perhaps simply winning control of a system divvies out some spectacular amount of cash to all parties who are within the Militia (and participated in the fleet battles). Again: similar to how the game handles fleet payments for incursions: winning control of a system splits up like a Billion ISK to Militia members in the system, based on how effective they were at achieving the objectives.

Anyway: all of that is FW dependent, and not really the main goal of this thread. However, I think it's a fun happy-medium between suddenly making low-sec moats around all the empires, and having a quick and easy trek to Jita to sell all your wares.
44000
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-09-21 07:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: 44000
Danika Princip wrote:
Daedalus II wrote:
I've been thinking about something like this:

* Reduce the acceleration time when going into warp (make it more snappy, like on the login screen).
* Reduce max warp speed a little to compensate.
* Make it so you don't warp through planets and other stuff by having the warp system pick out "redirection nodes" to where the ship will warp. A "redirection node" is like a road crossing where you slow down, realign in normal speed, and warp again, automatically. I imagine a typical station-to-gate warp to encompass 3-4 such realignments.

These realignment spots would be fairly similar for ships that travel the same route and would be a prime location to set up pirate camps (the camps can then be avoided by not taking the obvious route gate-to-gate).

I think this will give a feeling of a bit larger space, without necessarily making travel times very much higher, but instead you spend more time realigning at nodes. It will give you a better feeling for the space you are in instead of just blasting past it at max speed.


Now try that in a freighter, or even a BS, something that takes a while to align.

All you would do is make travel more annoying. This is a bad thing.



Ya, it would be bloody annoying, wouldnt it. But, you would only really need one realignment point, and a lot of systems u can fly straight through. Frieghtors (and I fly them a lot) i dont think the change would be too bad. yes, it will slow things down, but quite frankly, I dont expect to go too quickly in a freightor.

As for BS's, in empire. If you really have to go fast, put in allignment mods if its safe to do so. If its Nul or low, well, that would add an interesting fleet commander thing to think about (better have premade align spots!)

it would be great coming out of warp at a plannet re-aligning then warping to another celestial. it would add additional spots to camp, but at the same time, it could ad a new protection dynamic for ppl who own space? camping or maybe even putting up a pos at a realign spot.

I think I am one for this post. but it does need refinement
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
#53 - 2011-09-21 18:19:11 UTC
44000 wrote:
an interesting fleet commander thing to think about (better have premade align spots!)

Oh-oh....that brings back bad memories of the insta-jump BM overkill. While the number of BMs required over the whole cluster would be significantly lower than at those times, it would still bring back the same database problem to some extent.

Where was it that someone suggested to allow pilots to arbitrarily select their warp-out spot on the solar system map ? Just like positioning probes. Makes sense to me. I think that was in the small holding or home feedback threads for 0.0 development. As CCP spitfire pointed out, similarities to this OP are negotiated there. That would allow plotting the course on the fly, not needing premade BMs.

Oh, that leads me to think : what if a ship would leave a warp signature that decayed over time ? One hour or so. And some scanner mini-game allowed following that signature, making it increasingly harder the more time had passed. If personal homes or basis could be setup in artificial deadspace created by pilots ( where ships are undetectable while within ) -- this is small holding topic -- this would still allow eventually following one there.

Sorry, if I am forking this thread ... Oops
Mirima Thurander
#54 - 2011-09-21 18:45:44 UTC
Seeing as how they haven't moved over the idea threads i don't see how it hurts.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2011-09-21 19:00:37 UTC
I still say instead of slowing movemnt speed to make eve seem bigger,

Just add more crap to do throughout eve. More agents to systems without them, more stations to systems without them, more belts to systems without them, more PI for system without them, more lvl 5 agents in low sec.

So on and so forth.

Thus spreading out the population, creating new trade hubs, while not effecting anything else.

The more spread out the eve population is, the larger eve will seem.

The more trade hubs the larger it will seem and the more trade options there will be.

If it were to effect prices of items, they would only go up because there would be less supply in trade regions due to new trade hubs in currently unsupplied regions.

I've been to several regions in eve of high, low, an null sec that were almost void of life.

The lack of agents, mining, stations, PI, and whatever else is what leads to this.

Give more location options and the people will spread out, making eve seem larger, and making profitting off mining, salvaging, contruction, trade, and whatever other form of revenue more profitable at the same time.

It's a quite viable suggestion...
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
#56 - 2011-09-21 19:08:53 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
More stuff in space.

Take this goal, and now let Capsuleers build ( or trigger spawn of ) these sites and structures.

Just a question, off the record, you have been enough Sightseeing in the Cluster ?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2011-09-21 19:21:16 UTC
Erik Finnegan wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
More stuff in space.

Take this goal, and now let Capsuleers build ( or trigger spawn of ) these sites and structures.

Just a question, off the record, you have been enough Sightseeing in the Cluster ?


Yeah, way too much reading there for me.

But at least my point is still valid.

Every faction has AT LEAST one region that is almost empty.

It also has large regions that do have a trade hub, but the regions are so large that it can be 15 jumps from you to the trade hub.

So in this instance.

Split larger regions into smaller, more managable regions, add the stuff I suggested for the players to do, and they will naturally spread out.

No one wants to be in large population territories. They'd rather have a smaller population but with the same eminities as higher populations.

So add crap, cut some regions down in size. BOOM... eve seems bigger and the markets do better everywhere.
Mirima Thurander
#58 - 2011-09-22 14:55:21 UTC
up

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#59 - 2011-09-22 15:44:01 UTC
CCP Spitfire wrote:
It's not exactly on topic, but there is still a lot of good ideas in the Smallholding brainstorming thread on the old forums.



Will we be getting continuations of the old threads here? Or are they satisfied with the responses they have received?

Question

Where I am.

Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
#60 - 2011-09-22 19:13:47 UTC
Here is your answer, Bloodpetal; CCP will not continue feedback. Also, I read in a dev / CSM blog that a dev blog commenting the feedback shall appear soon.