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Subsystem Targeting

Author
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-02-18 02:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Before I spew out my entire proposal on subsystem targeting and how to do it; I want to know why you think there should be subsystem targeting and what the goal should be. Why should a player focus on some part of the ship to mess with besides working on making the standard three grey bars turn red? I only want to focus on capital ships in this thread please. What benefit would this have?
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-02-18 02:52:46 UTC
As it stands, in EVE, damage works like this: everything is fully operational until you drop below 1 point of hull, at which point you blow up.

One conceivable advantage to targeting subsystems is that you could deal some damage to a capital, even if you aren't able to kill it.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-02-18 02:59:10 UTC
Ares Renton wrote:
As it stands, in EVE, damage works like this: everything is fully operational until you drop below 1 point of hull, at which point you blow up.

One conceivable advantage to targeting subsystems is that you could deal some damage to a capital, even if you aren't able to kill it.


I agree. So you are saying there should be certain aspects about a capital that can be messed with correct? Do you have some examples?
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-02-18 03:48:44 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Ares Renton wrote:
As it stands, in EVE, damage works like this: everything is fully operational until you drop below 1 point of hull, at which point you blow up.

One conceivable advantage to targeting subsystems is that you could deal some damage to a capital, even if you aren't able to kill it.


I agree. So you are saying there should be certain aspects about a capital that can be messed with correct? Do you have some examples?


To be honest, I've never even looked at a capital or the parts that go into it before.

But it would sound pretty fun to me to be able to blow up a capital ship's jump drive and strand it in a system until it gets repairs. Cripple its capacitor. Blow up Offensive systems to take it out of a fight. Take down its defensive systems to make it go down faster, etc.

Of course, to compensate for this added weakness, the ship should be given more raw defensive stats overall.
seany1212
Drunkendis Order
#5 - 2012-02-18 03:53:30 UTC
Huh, I always wondered what the hoopla was about this, I actually really like the idea Shocked, makes cap warfare potentially a bit more tactical, but surely the caps would have to have some way of self-repairing the broken subsystem? Otherwise if you kill the jump-drive subsystem, the warp subsystem and every other subsystem but the ship itself you'd just be left stuck in space... I like it... LOL Lol
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-02-18 03:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Renton
seany1212 wrote:
Huh, I always wondered what the hoopla was about this, I actually really like the idea Shocked, makes cap warfare potentially a bit more tactical, but surely the caps would have to have some way of self-repairing the broken subsystem? Otherwise if you kill the jump-drive subsystem, the warp subsystem and every other subsystem but the ship itself you'd just be left stuck in space... I like it... LOL Lol


Make it so that a destroyed system can be fixed with hull repair or remote hull repair systems and brought back online. Or maybe treat it like an overheated module and slowly fix it with nanite paste or some sort of specialized variant.

Either way, if a ship gets every subsystem destroyed and has no backup, its assailants did their job and they deserve to see the pilot self-destruct.
CaleAdaire
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#7 - 2012-02-18 04:27:42 UTC
Ares Renton wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Ares Renton wrote:
As it stands, in EVE, damage works like this: everything is fully operational until you drop below 1 point of hull, at which point you blow up.

One conceivable advantage to targeting subsystems is that you could deal some damage to a capital, even if you aren't able to kill it.


I agree. So you are saying there should be certain aspects about a capital that can be messed with correct? Do you have some examples?


To be honest, I've never even looked at a capital or the parts that go into it before.

But it would sound pretty fun to me to be able to blow up a capital ship's jump drive and strand it in a system until it gets repairs. Cripple its capacitor. Blow up Offensive systems to take it out of a fight. Take down its defensive systems to make it go down faster, etc.

Of course, to compensate for this added weakness, the ship should be given more raw defensive stats overall.

Maybe instead of adding defense to the caps, maybe a new class and module set for repairing the components or subsystems. This makes caps more vulnerable and forces them to rely on fleets and support even more. Maybe a supercap fix? with a new T2 cruiser or something?

Trust in God, Have Faith in Fusion.

Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-02-18 04:42:07 UTC
Guys, please don't talk about how to do things, but why and what.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#9 - 2012-02-18 06:26:40 UTC
Capitals... maybe. Sub-capitals... wouldn't work unless you increase the HP of all of them (which will further render active tanks useless outside of PvE).
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#10 - 2012-02-18 07:36:36 UTC
Combat in eve is quite fast and ferice enough that ANY attempt to target subsystems would be 'wasted' time.

To combat this, we introduce 'scripts' that alter the sub systems to be targeted.

As for Why the only system I can see this working well with is, da tuh dah! Heating.

Use a Heatprojector and or Remote Cooler with the installed script and alter another ships heat levels.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-02-18 07:47:43 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Combat in eve is quite fast and ferice enough that ANY attempt to target subsystems would be 'wasted' time.

To combat this, we introduce 'scripts' that alter the sub systems to be targeted.

As for Why the only system I can see this working well with is, da tuh dah! Heating.

Use a Heatprojector and or Remote Cooler with the installed script and alter another ships heat levels.


Well yes heat could play a factor, but I was thinking more of specific things on a capital ship as opposed to a general heat damage to say modules or something. Not saying it is a bad idea, but I would like to see a wide variety of objectives/goals and reasons why a frigate causing harm to them would be beneficial to just shooting three grey bars.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-02-18 08:49:06 UTC
Subsystem targeting on smaller ships is wasted time and shouldn't be implemented. Your guns have often trouble even hitting them, so it also seem rather unrealistic that you could target a specific section of the hull. It makes sense though when you have small ships attacking large targets. That said I think the heat idea is not a good one. For one it makes no sense that shooting them raises their heat level and it would propably be way too overpowered, since it could destroy every active module on the target. Besides I want to create a new tactical consideration, not stack more crap on an existing mechanic and potentially ruin it. Overheating is fine and it should be kept out of this.

My vision would be to add more tactical elements to specific kinds of fights, without making old ones redundant or creating new modules, that only serve this one specific purpose. I don't like the idea of being able to take out the defences of capitals though, meaning lowering their ability to tank damage and use non-attacking modules. I think defanging and disabling their jump capability are much better alternatives and make more sense, since at least highslots are located on the outside of the ship's hull.

Why do it at all? The reason being I think it would make the capital fights more engaging and varied, act as a additional mechanical counter to the capitalship/supercapital advantage over subcapitals and stop out tanking the subcap damage from totally nullifying their effectiveness. You could still tank them and survive, but they could cripple you making you vulnerable to more serious attacks and make a difference by making repairs take time and money. No kind of simple remote repping or local solutions can be allowed to counter this damage/incapacitation though or the whole thing will be a waste of time to implement and to utilize.

To balance this I would recommend limitations on what can do and where can they do subsystem targeting even on cap ships and what can be targeted. As I said, I'd prefer if only the offensive highslot modules would be vulnerable. Second tricky part is the hitpoint total. I'd actually go for a low amount here, but counter it with putting a limit on where you can damage subsystems. What I'm getting at is, if you allow them to be shot by battleships from >100km away, they'll have to have massive EHP to balance it, making them an unattractive target to shoot at in general and not worth bothering at all with smaller fleets. A possible solution would be to force close range combat to target subsystems, with target painters possibly increasing that range, but still keeping the range relatively short.

This wouldn't revolutionise how the world works, but it could be used to alter the tactical environment and fluidity of large fleet battles, while creating an incentive to get in to brawling distance with your opponents with short range squads and make a difference in the larger fight.
Valei Khurelem
#13 - 2012-02-18 09:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Quote:
Your guns have often trouble even hitting them, so it also seem rather unrealistic that you could target a specific section of the hull.


So it's unrealistic to target specific points on a ship but realistic for a giant ship to be piloted by someone in a space capsule, have damage represented in thousands of points and be able to snipe targets perfectly from hundreds of kilometers away depending on the type of equipment you use just by clicking on a skill and training it? You really think that kind of thing is more acceptable in a game universe? Why is it that players in this game are so against anything in EVE that involves the tiniest bit of player interaction? Any time someone brings up aiming, using skill or precision or sight there is an immediate troll fest from people who claim to know better yet never really give any legitimate or convincing points. The reason to do it, is because it would make the game more fun and have combat more about player interaction instead of just locking on, firing and waiting, if you think the current EVE gameplay is fun, you need to have a new outlook on life.

I don't know about just capital ships, but I think anything pretty big, say Battleships and above should definitely have subsystems that can be targeted, it would give smaller ships a much fairer fight and force larger ships to play their roles as they should, to be support and not just blobs that focus fire on weaker targets than them.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium

seany1212
Drunkendis Order
#14 - 2012-02-18 11:01:33 UTC
I'm inclined to agree with it just being capitals considering the masses of ehp they have, it would just be wasted time having subsystems on a battleship when in most cases its just faster to kill the ship as a whole than picking it apart with subsystems. For supers though I'd love to see this implemented in the form of the jump drive and warp drive subsystems as it would mean that more than just hics would then be able to immobilize one in space given enough damage to the particular subsystem.

For instance, 2 roaming vagabond pilots are plowing there way through nullsec, they stumble upon a ratting titan, knowing that their standard points won't work on it they set to work on its warp drive, crippling it before the titan goes into warp. They then set to work on the jump drive as its the titans only remaining method of escape, while calling out for the cavalry. Obviously at this point the titan would be calling for help too.

That's how I'd like to see it anyway, but INB4TITANBEARSCALLINGBLASPHEMY Roll
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-02-18 15:38:58 UTC
Once again, this thread is only about subsystems on capital ships. So please stop debating on how any of this would work on sub-capital ships.

Secondly I know most of you immediately think that you should be able to do something to tackle it and your imagination stops right there. Making it unable to jump/warp is fine and all, but what else would you want to do to it? What would be beneficial to shoot? What if the capital is already tackled using the already existing in game mechanics. Isn't there other things on the ship you would like to focus attention on??

And again, please, please stop worrying about how and focus your attention on what and why.
Monty Kvaran
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2012-02-18 17:22:11 UTC
Subsystems should be able to be restored without requiring extra modules, but loosing them should be a big enough penalty to have real bite.

Subsystems that should be targetable on a capital:
*Each highslot - destroying a highslot would cause the module in it to offline, can be brought back online using the normal onlining process, which would be impractical in the heat of battle. Active siege modules would not end mid cycle, but would offline at the end of the current one.
*Drone control subsystems - each one knocked out would reduce the number of drones/fighters allowed in space by 1. Should go back online 10-20 minutes after being knocked out.
*Jump Drive - Jump range reduced based on percent of damage, passively restores 5% per minute

Subsystems should be frigate sized for targeting/tracking purposes, and should receive some percent of the active tank of the ship towards their own tanks.
Ares Renton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-02-18 17:35:38 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Once again, this thread is only about subsystems on capital ships. So please stop debating on how any of this would work on sub-capital ships.

Secondly I know most of you immediately think that you should be able to do something to tackle it and your imagination stops right there. Making it unable to jump/warp is fine and all, but what else would you want to do to it? What would be beneficial to shoot? What if the capital is already tackled using the already existing in game mechanics. Isn't there other things on the ship you would like to focus attention on??

And again, please, please stop worrying about how and focus your attention on what and why.


-Weapon/Siege Mode systems on a dreadnought to stall a station assault
-Capacitor/Triage systems on a Carrier to cripple its logistics capabilities
-Drone control systems on a carrier to cripple its offensive capabilities
-Doomsday weapons on a Titan, to prevent it from being used later in the fight
-Hangar Bays to neuter reinforcements
-Defensive systems-- so that a capital with an unbreakable tank might be able to be whittled down
-Self-Destruct systems, so that the pilot cannot deny you your spoils

etc.
Amaroq Dricaldari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-02-20 03:08:54 UTC
If we do this, then you could stop a Low-Sec Ganker using a Strategic Cruiser with a few lucky shots to the Offensive subsystem.

This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-02-20 07:58:14 UTC
Amaroq Dricaldari wrote:
If we do this, then you could stop a Low-Sec Ganker using a Strategic Cruiser with a few lucky shots to the Offensive subsystem.


Once again, we are only discussing sub-system targeting for capital ships. Perhaps you could give some examples on what you would like to see?

On a related note, I know the first thing that comes to everyone's mind is the Holy Grail of sub-systems, the warp/jump ability on super capitals. If you are going to talk about it, please do so without just saying, "We should be able to knock it out/turn it off." and that's it. That subject is very touchy and I really don't want to talk about it too much. So if you would be so kind to discuss other possible targets instead. Big smile
shadowace00007
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
Federation Uprising
#20 - 2012-02-20 11:46:00 UTC
Perhaps instead of targeting sub systems you target the modules themselves. So you can target a slot at random unless you have a ship scanner to see what mod your shooting. For instance a dread could get its siege module under fire and after enough fire would kill the sieges bonuses but leave the ship still trying to use the module, same with a triage Projected ECM and Dooms day, or you could just pop a gun or any other mod on the ship, but you would have to have someone with a ship scanner or you would be shooting at random slots hoping it was something useful.

Only thing is it would have to be only mediate the damage to the ship itself say it hits the armor and or shield but some passes threw to the intended target. this would mean that if your trying to kill a big buffer that it might take longer to take out mods then just applying max damage to the ship itself.

there is already a working system for module damage so all it would need would be the ability to target said mods and some way to rep dead mods in space as paste will not fix completely broken mods.


Born Amarrian Raised Minmatar.

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