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Change Capital Selfdestruct
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#21 - 2012-02-19 21:47:24 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Skyreth wrote:
As for those saying to get more firepower...not everyone is in a huge alliance. So you're all saying that a small corp or alliance that is lucky enough to catch a carrier has to magically come up with more firepower to take it down?...really?

This is the same as ships logging out and warping off to avoid losses. The funny thing is that the majority of people that say "get more firepower" are part of the larger alliances/corps, and the majority of people saying SDing is fine are the ones using it.

First paragraph
1. Do you climb a steep rock wall without safety gear? Yes. No. (probably not, cause you don't have the means to do it safely)

2. Do you engage a cap ship knowing you might not take it down? Yes. No. Maybe, cause you don't have to engage every ship you see if you can't kill it but you know you have 2 minutes total. Is it possible? Like above, you could climb a rock wall but if you think its not possible to do it safely...why would you climb the wall if you could get hurt? so in response, you shouldn't engage a ship just because it was on grid knowing you couldn't take it out in a quick and timely manner.

Second paragraph
1. Logging off, means it got away to fight another day. It avoided the loss, knowing it was going to lose and that you couldn't kill it. But that same ship can fight you again tommorrow.

2. Self Destruct....its gone. It needs to be replaced. That one ship, will not fight another day and another ship will have to take its place. HOW DOES IT GET AWAY?

So, how are consequences avoided? Your ego and puckering up your butthole in annoyance at failure is not an indication of the other pilot avoiding a consequence. The consequence of the ship self destructing...is your failure to do so and you getting mad.

Simi Kusoni wrote:
As for kill mails not being a part of Eve, maybe someone should have let the dev team who just added implants to pods know that before they wasted all their time.

Question: Why should you be awarded implants on a killmail? If you could destroy a pod before and you knew it might take implants with it or it might not actually have it, then everything is ok. If you couldn't bother to destroy a pod, because it wasn't really worth anything...then why add implants? Frankly, I belive if you can't be bothered to shoot a pod before the change then there is no damn reason award a bonus later.

And to bother dudes, KILLMAILS HAVE NOTHING TO DO ACTUAL IN GAME PLAY! Yes, thats right. You get a little note or you don't get it in you inbox doesn't change the fact: A ship is gone. You just like to measure youself up against other people because its imported to a killboard, which again I will tell you...IS PLAYER DRIVEN AND PLAYER SCORED! Since there is no official CCP board, self destruct doesn't matter! It just matters to you and how mad you get at your failure to achieve a lol-game score that means nothing in the real world....when in the grand scheme of thems its still 50/50 win/loss FOR EVERYBODY! Add it up..someone always loses and someone always wins.

Only reason I am against changes like self destruct is because it benifits you only and dumb down the game even more. I want you to try harder, not set it to Hello Kitty level...like me asking for a PVP flag so I can turn it off....what would you say? HTFU and try harder maybe? Ah...I see your true colors.

And BTW, who wouldn't want to screw over another player? Since there are no "honor" type games rules in EVE...I bet you would say yes. Forget the loss part, think about the gains someone might get and what would you do to prevent something that is so valuable to someone else that you can make them rage Oops

And sorry for the bump...just so many people obsessed over gamer scores as if it means something....FFS there are other things in life Roll

Aqruie, I'm going to be honest, I never read your posts any more Sad They're extremely long, filled with caps lock rage, and the arguments very rarely make any sense.

I mean, just glancing through this post, there's some argument based on whether or not people wear safety gear? Another claiming you shouldn't engage in fight longer than two minutes, LOL. There's even a little bit more of all that "player score" rage you love so much.

Please just respond to the points raised instead of going off on these rage posts. Start with the two paragraphs of my post you conveniently didn't respond to.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#22 - 2012-02-19 21:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
I'd just like to add. Aqriue. Is. Awesome. lol (not the rage so much as the uncensored "tell it like it is")

And here's a key point "KILLMAILS HAVE NOTHING TO DO ACTUAL IN GAME PLAY!". AKA, no in-game effect at all, they're good for nothing whatsoever except epeen boosting (which isn't gameplay at all, it's just pride).
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#23 - 2012-02-19 22:13:20 UTC
mxzf wrote:
I'd just like to add. Aqriue. Is. Awesome. lol (not the rage so much as the uncensored "tell it like it is")

And here's a key point "KILLMAILS HAVE NOTHING TO DO ACTUAL IN GAME PLAY!". AKA, no in-game effect at all, they're good for nothing whatsoever except epeen boosting (which isn't gameplay at all, it's just pride).

The problem is kill mails do have an in-game effect, for a PvP alliance your kill board is how you advertise for new corps or members. Or it's a useful tool for vetting prospective new members.

If, for example, I lost multiple capitals by fail hot dropping targets I might be considered something of a liability when I apply to a new corp. Or if I apply to a new alliance and they've lost a large number of super cap fleets I might think twice about joining them in the first place. This is why FCs will, when they know they are losing in a capital ship fight, tell all fleet members to initiate self destruct, because it hides their failure.

Kill boards aren't perfect, but they are a part of Eve, self destructing as it stands is just making an imperfect record even worse. Ganking ratters aside, its impact on fleet fights is reason enough to be rid of it.

Personally I'd be happy with all mails simply becoming downloadable via the API, in that way self destruct mails could be viewed, as well as stupid losses to NPCs (Oh how I love seeing them, there was a Nyx lost to guristas rats a while back). And you still wouldn't get KMs for ships that self destruct.

Anyway, CCP have said they want to see more supers/titans dying, but at the moment there is very little incentive to attack them. There's also not a lot of risk involved in using them, when for a PvP player their KB is considerably more important than 15b ISK, and that loss can easily be hidden 99% of the time.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#24 - 2012-02-19 22:23:00 UTC
Personally, I'm not against killmails in general, I do acknowledge that they do provide a useful record of losses and victories, I just hate it when people treat them like they are all-important and provide meaning to life.

My personal stance about the whole self-destruct/KM issue is that a killmail should be generated any time a ship dies. If it dies to self destruction, then the owner gets on the KM as having dealt x damage to the ship (where x is the remaining HP at the moment the self destruct completes). That way there's still a record of the loss, but it properly reflects the amount of damage that the defender did to their own ship too. (I posted that idea in ... a thread somewhere around here, lol, can't remember which one since there are so many SD threads)
Morpheus Mishima
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-02-19 22:28:33 UTC
This issue can NOT get enough thread-space. As it is right now, self-destruct is broken.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#26 - 2012-02-19 22:29:12 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Personally, I'm not against killmails in general, I do acknowledge that they do provide a useful record of losses and victories, I just hate it when people treat them like they are all-important and provide meaning to life.

My personal stance about the whole self-destruct/KM issue is that a killmail should be generated any time a ship dies. If it dies to self destruction, then the owner gets on the KM as having dealt x damage to the ship (where x is the remaining HP at the moment the self destruct completes). That way there's still a record of the loss, but it properly reflects the amount of damage that the defender did to their own ship too. (I posted that idea in ... a thread somewhere around here, lol, can't remember which one since there are so many SD threads)

Heh, yeah, I think that was at the beginning of this one. Or the last one, sigh, we need to have mods start merging threads on these forums.

Anyway I'd agree with that as a compromise to be honest, I'm more interested in not allowing super/titan owners to completely hide their losses than anything else.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#27 - 2012-02-19 22:39:33 UTC
Morpheus Mishima wrote:
This issue can NOT get enough thread-space. As it is right now, self-destruct is broken.


No, it's not broken. It's just upsetting a lot of butthurt people who feel entitled to 'their' KM even though the ship self destructed. I'm not saying it's working perfectly, but it's certainly not 'broken', just 'sub-optimal' at worst.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#28 - 2012-02-19 22:44:31 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Morpheus Mishima wrote:
This issue can NOT get enough thread-space. As it is right now, self-destruct is broken.


No, it's not broken. It's just upsetting a lot of butthurt people who feel entitled to 'their' KM even though the ship self destructed. I'm not saying it's working perfectly, but it's certainly not 'broken', just 'sub-optimal' at worst.

I've got to agree, I dislike the current self destruct mechanics and think they need changing, but some people are being entirely too dramatic about it.

*cough* Aqruie *cough* I'm looking at you too Big smile

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Spy 21
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-02-19 22:50:57 UTC
Tidurious wrote:


You wanted to kill their ship, their ship is now dead whether they SD'd or not. Therefore, working as intended.


+1

Obfuscation for the WIN on page 3...
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#30 - 2012-02-20 00:16:38 UTC
simplest would be a kill mail/loss mail that states "self destructed" should keep people happier and means no tinkering with the self destruct mechanisum itself
Skyreth
Victoria Per Conquestum
#31 - 2012-02-20 01:07:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Skyreth
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
simplest would be a kill mail/loss mail that states "self destructed" should keep people happier and means no tinkering with the self destruct mechanisum itself


Thats the tricky thing man. Although a lot of people would agree that this would work, cap pilots that use it a lot would be here posting more than pilots who are just barely missing killing a cap due to SD.
Thats why I was saying a simple EWAR module or something similar that increases SD time a little would do fine. If you can SD before you get blown up with the EWAR module on you then fine, if not, better luck next time.
Edit: This option ^^^^ also means that a capital could still SD if there wasn't enough firepower shooting at it.

Another note not affiliated with Blast's post: I, myself, and a LOT of players in EVE do view killboards as the means to measure a pilots skill and capability in EVE as well as for intel purposes (such as gathering the types of ships a specific enemy may fly and so on). SDing ruins the purpose of a killboard/tracking kills and losses.

Although I can understand carebears fighting against letting pvp pilots get more kills on their boards, the kill log that stores your kills and losses is there for a reason. If a pilot doesn't want a carrier loss on their killboard, then be more careful with it instead of SDing when you get caught.

And yes, I can understand your point mxzf. But when SDing gets to the point where nearly every cap starts SDing as soon as the fight starts to go in their enemies favor (from small gang fights to large fleet fights), it is getting a tad overused and pilots that spend the time finding and catching the capital in the first place need some way to counter the timer.
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