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A serious matter which is going to collapse the game
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Der ToteMann
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-02-18 16:32:45 UTC
As we all know EVE is a sandbox and this is a feature which makes it so special. Unseen by most players, I discovered a core problem in the sandbox. As long as a user just uses the provided features everything is good. The problem appears in cases of putting real money in the game aka PLEX buying from CCP or from GTCs converting them to the game. Unlike other MMORPGS where this feature is implemented, EVE as a sandbox has a total loss factor. A customer who buys a PLEX for real money to sell it for game items as ISK etc. has no guaranty for what he gets in return. In fact what he gets in return is at random, it doesnt depend only from him but also from the actions of other players. A total loss in such case ( scam, suicide gank etc. ) is a total loss of real money and as a result a wealth damage. This procedure is an exactly as one in gambling games, where a participant pays for a chance. Here it comes, at least in Germany where i am from ( I believe in USA and EU also ) a consumer has the right to revoke a money transaction if an organization which provided the game did it so without proper autorisation from the state and without an explicit warning about the gambling factor before the consumer could make his decision of buiyng or not buiyng the product.

CCP could be providing an illegal gambling if the rules allow "fraud between players" and if an finacial ante (-> PLEX) has to be paid in exchange of a prospect of preservation of assets, because then the decision of gain/loss depends only at randomness whether and how many "scammers", gankers etc. you will met.

"Those who offer a fee-based gaming for financial like "game currency" and allow fraud, lotteries, "false-banking", "fake fonds" are exceeding the limit between legal game of skill and unallowed organization of (random-based) gambling games." ( German Consumer protection organization Rhineland-Palatinate )

Thinking further this opens a legal possibility to PvP without any losses, because everybody who buy ISK through PLEX can claim the loss for his Ship as a random factor and revoke the transaction.

I suggest CCP has to change the reimburse policy in this cases unless a total collapse in near future.
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#2 - 2012-02-18 16:38:24 UTC
0/10

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#3 - 2012-02-18 16:52:00 UTC
It is not because of chance whether or not someone loses a plex in combat, it is because of stupid.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
killorbekilled TBE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-02-18 17:00:38 UTC
dude seriously stfu then if anyone or anything will collapse eve it will be people like you and threads like this what exactly is your intention of posting stuff like this so everyone can get ship reimbursements if they've ever bought a plex? this would collapse the market
that's how i understand your post if Ive got it wrong i don't care my offer to stfu still stands

:)
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-02-18 17:20:31 UTC
I'm from the Internet, therefore, I KNOW THE LAW.
NiGhTTraX
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-02-18 17:57:59 UTC
ROFLMAO. That is all.

If you're gonna post here thinking your idea is the greatest thing since bacon and that it will save EVE and possibly all humankind with it, you're gonna have a bad time.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#7 - 2012-02-18 18:11:45 UTC
Methinks the OP lost the ship he paid for with plex and is now vexed.

In order to play eve you don't need to buy plex.

If you buy plex you do it to convert to ingame currency. If you lose what you purchase with that ingame currency it's your own fault. No one ever said EvE was fair. It's about as fair as real life. Not very. Get over it.
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#8 - 2012-02-18 18:29:29 UTC
Grey Azorria wrote:
It is not because of chance whether or not someone loses a plex in combat, it is because of stupid.


I think the OP is more stupid that he looks. He probably bought a big shiny and someone made it go boom and now he wants that game changed to suit him.

Newsflash: this isn't going to happen. Only morons like you getting what you want will bring EVE down, thankfully Darwin Award winners do not last long enough to really cause the game any major problems.

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

Duvida
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-02-18 20:22:24 UTC
killorbekilled TBE wrote:
dude seriously stfu then if anyone or anything will collapse eve it will be people like you and threads like this what exactly is your intention of posting stuff like this so everyone can get ship reimbursements if they've ever bought a plex? this would collapse the market
that's how i understand your post if Ive got it wrong i don't care my offer to stfu still stands



Was this typed on your iphone?

In any case, how long have we had PLEX? We haven't 'collapsed' yet. I also think that a Plex-bought ship was converted into a Jita-bound pinata and batted without mercy a short time ago.
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-02-18 20:39:40 UTC
Duvida wrote:
killorbekilled TBE wrote:
dude seriously stfu then if anyone or anything will collapse eve it will be people like you and threads like this what exactly is your intention of posting stuff like this so everyone can get ship reimbursements if they've ever bought a plex? this would collapse the market
that's how i understand your post if Ive got it wrong i don't care my offer to stfu still stands



Was this typed on your iphone?

In any case, how long have we had PLEX? We haven't 'collapsed' yet. I also think that a Plex-bought ship was converted into a Jita-bound pinata and batted without mercy a short time ago.


Then there was this, of course. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7334639

The OP's idiocy revolves around thinking that chance has anything to do with this game. It's not random that you got your **** blown up. And German law applies in Germany, not Iceland, the UK, or anywhere else this game is hosted.
Inovy Dacella
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#11 - 2012-02-18 21:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Inovy Dacella
Then there was this, of course. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7334639



That has got to be the biggest kill in EVE history! How is it even possible for someone to be that dumb? Load a cyno frigs cargo with PLEX and get ganked! I simply can't wrap my mind around it.... Shocked
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-02-18 21:42:56 UTC
Inovy Dacella wrote:
Then there was this, of course. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7334639

The OP's idiocy revolves around thinking that chance has anything to do with this game. It's not random that you got your **** blown up. And German law applies in Germany, not Iceland, the UK, or anywhere else this game is hosted.



That has got to be the biggest kill in EVE history! How is it even possible for someone to be that dumb? Load a cyno frigs cargo with PLEX and get ganked! I simply can't wrap my mind around it.... Shocked[/quote]

Biggest frigate kill, most likely. Titans cost more just for their hulls, but I get what you're saying.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#13 - 2012-02-18 22:27:40 UTC
Feligast wrote:
Then there was this, of course. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7334639

Ah yes, That kessy will hold a special place in the communities heart for a long time yet.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Tidurious
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-02-18 23:11:54 UTC
Serge Bastana wrote:
0/10



Ahh, I'd give him 2/10 for trying, but still just a stupid troll when it comes down to it.

BTW - since there is no legal way to convert ISK --> RL Money, your argument is invalid. Nice try though.
Der ToteMann
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-02-18 23:30:57 UTC
Tidurious wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
0/10



BTW - since there is no legal way to convert ISK --> RL Money, your argument is invalid. Nice try though.


Sorry, but it seems that like many others the magic spell "EULA and TOS" conjured you. They cannot be broken in cases they did not approve and the easiest way for it if you bought EVE as a CD-Game. To have law power they must be presented to you before you can make a decision to "buy or not to buy". Actually this affects any kind of software purchased in a store. If you were actually one of the lucky guys who downloaded the client directly, well in this case EULA and TOS have law power unless the civil law in your country says something else. For Germany I can say for sure no law power because there are many aspects in the EULA which make your rights as a consumer disappear. If you have any friends who study law in your country, ask them to take a quick look through EULA.
Tidurious
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-02-18 23:38:16 UTC
Actually, it is implied - installing software and using it gives "Implied Consent" of the EULA and TOS. Perhaps YOU should be looking for lawyer friends so that you can understand your mistake.

EVE will not be "dying" because you cannot understand legal precedent. Don't worry about it.
Vaarkk
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-02-18 23:49:25 UTC
This is such a bad post and I hope everyone will stop replying to it.
Der ToteMann
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-02-19 00:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Der ToteMann
Tidurious wrote:
Actually, it is implied - installing software and using it gives "Implied Consent" of the EULA and TOS. Perhaps YOU should be looking for lawyer friends so that you can understand your mistake.

EVE will not be "dying" because you cannot understand legal precedent. Don't worry about it.


Sorry again, it hurts to see how many people doesnt know even their basic rights and bow deep before the dictatorship of companies. Installing software doesnt imply anything. The question for something to apply is to affect your decision of sighning a contract. In cases of software on CDs you cannot make this decision before buying it. In case of a direct download if it was for free you are right. I think this is also why EVE distribution on CDs is so low, the law section in CCP clearly knows that. But again even if "installing software and using it gives "Implied Consent" of the EULA and TOS" in case of a direct download, the law power of it is only affected by the prime civil law in your country. You will always have the upper hand if you have a solid and trustfull homebank which can also help you.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#19 - 2012-02-19 00:06:54 UTC
posting in an "eve is dying" thread
Duvida
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-02-19 20:16:16 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
posting in an "eve is dying" thread


It is? Darn. I thought it did that last week and got better.

But back to the OP, PLEX buying is perfectly fine. What you do with it, or whatever happens to that said PLEX ingame, is up to you.

I think PLEX is a great option as it allows for a legal outlet for an activity that had been happening anyway, and now people aren't getting banned left and right. And the game is less involved in creating more terrible situations in developing countries for kids that didn't want to be used as bots 18 hours a day.
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