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[Proposal] A Permanent solution to the Supercap problem
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Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#21 - 2012-02-16 19:22:12 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


2.) I'm not convinced the BPC drops should be tied to FW plexes. Part of my apprehension comes from a limited understanding of FW, but I think such fancy drops should be tied to the final room of a new series of escalated plexes. It makes complete sense that the "NPC's" you shoot are Empire NPC's, complete with tags, empire standing losses, RP, and the like, but I would imagine the series of complexes would typically be a nullsec feature. Whatever the means for the NPC drop, it's important the sources are ubiquitous enough to prevent BPC hording.

I think the OP was mainly looking for a place outside sovereign nullsec to put the BPC's so that supercap production has dependencies other than holding space.

This gets more people with more interests involved and adds another potential market layer with FW players selling BPC's to nullsec builders.

There is probably a better way to do it, but I can't think of one right off.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-02-16 19:28:11 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


2.) I'm not convinced the BPC drops should be tied to FW plexes. Part of my apprehension comes from a limited understanding of FW, but I think such fancy drops should be tied to the final room of a new series of escalated plexes. It makes complete sense that the "NPC's" you shoot are Empire NPC's, complete with tags, empire standing losses, RP, and the like, but I would imagine the series of complexes would typically be a nullsec feature. Whatever the means for the NPC drop, it's important the sources are ubiquitous enough to prevent BPC hording.

I think the OP was mainly looking for a place outside sovereign nullsec to put the BPC's so that supercap production has dependencies other than holding space.

This gets more people with more interests involved and adds another potential market layer with FW players selling BPC's to nullsec builders.

There is probably a better way to do it, but I can't think of one right off.


The OP is a NPC Alt who refuses to point out the problems specifically in great detal...only that he wants supercaps gone..removed...nerfed to hell and back.

And furthermore...a question a I asked that was ignored...how long does it take to build titan...from the ground up....from scratch.

these are one of many things that points to the sheer ignorance of the OP.

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Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-02-16 19:55:57 UTC
I think the BPC's would need to be a rare drop from something like Incursions. That is how it is now with the Revanant...why not do it the same way with Titans and Supers? Either way it should be something that takes teamwork to acheive. Shouldn't be a soloable L4 mission or anything like that.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#24 - 2012-02-16 21:54:52 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
The OP is a NPC Alt who refuses to point out the problems specifically in great detal...only that he wants supercaps gone..removed...nerfed to hell and back.

And furthermore...a question a I asked that was ignored...how long does it take to build titan...from the ground up....from scratch.

these are one of many things that points to the sheer ignorance of the OP.


It takes a little under 2 Months to build the actual titan, but the titan itself is built from a large number of components that also require signficant investment and build times. Additionally, titans must be built in Sov space, making titan production fairly risky. This is true for all supercaps.

By my conservative estimates (I don't have exact numbers), there are 700-1000 titans in the game, there are probably 3-4k supercarriers.

I'm missing the post with your questions... and where you attack him for being in an NPC corp alt ( which is irrelevant, btw).

Why is the big supercap arms race bad? One of the fundamental attributes of EvE that really perpetuates a dynamic and entertaining environment comes from the inherent rochambeau combat game. By getting in a bigger ship, you gain more tank, more dps, and other benefits, but you also gain weaknesses (Poorer tracking, slower, etc). As such, bigger is not better, and no ship or fleet is the "best". That is, until supercap fleets. Supercap fleets do NOT currently have an effective counter. Additionally, the current sov and pos mechanics create ideal immobile targets that cannot be pragmatically attacked nor defended when your opponent fields the larger supercap fleet.

Why aren't supercaps vulnerable to non-supercap fleets? Supercap fleets with Titans and SCs scale extraordinarily well because they have enourmous tanks, EWAR immunity, mobility, and uitilty RR (SC's). Currently, the only effective counter to a sizeable supercap fleet is a bigger supercap fleet. The recent changes to the supercarrier drone bay, the DD, and aggression log-off mechanics represent an ENORMOUS step in creating a vulernability beyond "more supercaps" by essentially limiting their ability to **** subcap fleets and/or log-off to escape destruction. However, titan turret mechanics and fighters are still effective tools to combat subcaps.

With the current in game resources, supercaps will continue to proliferate throughout new Eden, unless something changes. This has ALREADY been evidenced by the enormous proliferation in supercaps over the last two years. There are few options to resolve the potential pitfalls:


  1. Limit the number of supercaps in the game. (i.e. this proposal, which does so in probably the only equitable manner).
  2. Nerf supercaps to be ineffective against subcaps. Incarna changes to the SC drone bays, DD, and remote assistance has gone a long way in changing this, but Titan tracking and fighter damage is still very effective against subcap fleets. What really needs to change here is a fundamental alteration of the capital ship weapons mechanics (to be more like missiles), such that they are weak against small sig ships.
  3. Create a new ship/module/mechanic specifically to counter supercaps....
  4. Alter the Sov and POS mechanics, so supercaps are ineffective in engaging these.


All of these options have pro's and con's. I'm personally a fan of just changing the capital (turret) weapon mechanics to make them truly ineffective at engaging sub-BS sized ships. Current game mechanics allow a Titan fleet to effectively engage even cruiser fleets. Truthfully, changing the titans turrets tracking is not an easy fix... the change has to limit the ability of a Supercapital to APPLY its enormous dps to small-sig sized ships, but not nerf its ability to apply dps to capital ships, POS, and Sov structures.

IMO, the ops proposal is one of the FEW "fix supers" that DOESN"T involve nerfing them to "hell and back". So why don't you explain your issues with the proposal.

p.s. I realize that you have a deleted post which I never got to read, and the Op has gone through a few revisions in his post.... However, unprivied to the original discussion, I can only go by what I see now....
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-02-16 23:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
The OP is a NPC Alt who refuses to point out the problems specifically in great detal...only that he wants supercaps gone..removed...nerfed to hell and back.

And furthermore...a question a I asked that was ignored...how long does it take to build titan...from the ground up....from scratch.

these are one of many things that points to the sheer ignorance of the OP.


It takes a little under 2 Months to build the actual titan, but the titan itself is built from a large number of components that also require signficant investment and build times. Additionally, titans must be built in Sov space, making titan production fairly risky. This is true for all supercaps.

By my conservative estimates (I don't have exact numbers), there are 700-1000 titans in the game, there are probably 3-4k supercarriers.

I'm missing the post with your questions... and where you attack him for being in an NPC corp alt ( which is irrelevant, btw).

Why is the big supercap arms race bad? One of the fundamental attributes of EvE that really perpetuates a dynamic and entertaining environment comes from the inherent rochambeau combat game. By getting in a bigger ship, you gain more tank, more dps, and other benefits, but you also gain weaknesses (Poorer tracking, slower, etc). As such, bigger is not better, and no ship or fleet is the "best". That is, until supercap fleets. Supercap fleets do NOT currently have an effective counter. Additionally, the current sov and pos mechanics create ideal immobile targets that cannot be pragmatically attacked nor defended when your opponent fields the larger supercap fleet.

Why aren't supercaps vulnerable to non-supercap fleets? Supercap fleets with Titans and SCs scale extraordinarily well because they have enourmous tanks, EWAR immunity, mobility, and uitilty RR (SC's). Currently, the only effective counter to a sizeable supercap fleet is a bigger supercap fleet. The recent changes to the supercarrier drone bay, the DD, and aggression log-off mechanics represent an ENORMOUS step in creating a vulernability beyond "more supercaps" by essentially limiting their ability to **** subcap fleets and/or log-off to escape destruction. However, titan turret mechanics and fighters are still effective tools to combat subcaps.

With the current in game resources, supercaps will continue to proliferate throughout new Eden, unless something changes. This has ALREADY been evidenced by the enormous proliferation in supercaps over the last two years. There are few options to resolve the potential pitfalls:


  1. Limit the number of supercaps in the game. (i.e. this proposal, which does so in probably the only equitable manner).
  2. Nerf supercaps to be ineffective against subcaps. Incarna changes to the SC drone bays, DD, and remote assistance has gone a long way in changing this, but Titan tracking and fighter damage is still very effective against subcap fleets. What really needs to change here is a fundamental alteration of the capital ship weapons mechanics (to be more like missiles), such that they are weak against small sig ships.
  3. Create a new ship/module/mechanic specifically to counter supercaps....
  4. Alter the Sov and POS mechanics, so supercaps are ineffective in engaging these.


All of these options have pro's and con's. I'm personally a fan of just changing the capital (turret) weapon mechanics to make them truly ineffective at engaging sub-BS sized ships. Current game mechanics allow a Titan fleet to effectively engage even cruiser fleets. Truthfully, changing the titans turrets tracking is not an easy fix... the change has to limit the ability of a Supercapital to APPLY its enormous dps to small-sig sized ships, but not nerf its ability to apply dps to capital ships, POS, and Sov structures.

IMO, the ops proposal is one of the FEW "fix supers" that DOESN"T involve nerfing them to "hell and back". So why don't you explain your issues with the proposal.

p.s. I realize that you have a deleted post which I never got to read, and the Op has gone through a few revisions in his post.... However, unprivied to the original discussion, I can only go by what I see now....


Unlike the OP.....you strike me as someone who knows his stuff and actually has a rational explination to it...and I can udnerstand that.

I seriously doubt there are that many titans in this game...otehrwise we'd be seeing them more often than not.

Hes wanting to put a population cap on them and effect the manufactureing abiliteis...this is incredabily shortsighted....he has no concept of manufactureing or deployment....obviuosly this is something he will not see come to fruitition for 6 months to even an year....he will continue to #### and complain about this to no end because he didn't get what he wantted sooner rather than later.

As you know and I know...these things take time to build...2 months at best is generous at best...from what I heard it could take as much as 3 to 4 months..and thats assuming you dont have a crapton of resoruces backing you to keep things at full tilt.

It takes ALOT of effort to build super caps.....and while peopel are whining about how hard they are to kill...keep in mind to build them is just as difficult...its not like we're popping them out like crazy left and right.

Granted only the most well endowed alliances are capable of production to such numbers.....but this is entirely short sighted at best.

I can understand...but his lack of "meat" and just blah we shouold limit supercaps blah blah is short sighted at best....it is one thing to say you want...to expain why and outline the detaisl and the ramfiications of those desires is entirely something else.

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#26 - 2012-02-17 03:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Drake Draconis wrote:

Unlike the OP.....you strike me as someone who knows his stuff and actually has a rational explination to it...and I can udnerstand that.

I seriously doubt there are that many titans in this game...otehrwise we'd be seeing them more often than not.

Hes wanting to put a population cap on them and effect the manufactureing abiliteis...this is incredabily shortsighted....he has no concept of manufactureing or deployment....obviuosly this is something he will not see come to fruitition for 6 months to even an year....he will continue to #### and complain about this to no end because he didn't get what he wantted sooner rather than later.

As you know and I know...these things take time to build...2 months at best is generous at best...from what I heard it could take as much as 3 to 4 months..and thats assuming you dont have a crapton of resoruces backing you to keep things at full tilt.

It takes ALOT of effort to build super caps.....and while peopel are whining about how hard they are to kill...keep in mind to build them is just as difficult...its not like we're popping them out like crazy left and right.


Thank you for the complements...

I based my estimate of titans and supercaps from the Q4 QEN Report. In there, they discuss Supercap proliferation.

At the end of 2010, there were 472 Titans and 1782 SCs in game, with 94 and 595 built in the last quarter of 2010, respectively. Assuming similar production during the four quarters of 2011, I think my estimates are very reasonable, although the fall of the NC in the north and the wars in the south might have hindered Production and increased Supercap Death more than I realize.

The current situation has supercaps entering the game far more quickly than they die. In an ideal situation, their destruction would be on par with their production. This would be a very economically healthy scenario, filled with lots of tears to boot. However, they still aught to be powerful enough to represent the significant investment they represent. IMO, balancing them is very difficult.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#27 - 2012-02-17 04:46:03 UTC
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:
Lets flame out every single poster from this forums section, so there will be just full blown retards left, like Drake Draconis, talking to themselves.

Thoughts?

Supercaps are obvious problem, if you dont see it, or you still need explaination you must be blind or you are just plainly trolling.


I lol'ed

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
kyrieee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-02-17 08:52:40 UTC
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#29 - 2012-02-17 11:33:30 UTC
+1
Because need supcap changes.

I totally agreed with first point. Need increasing supcap prices.
But i think need other changes too. over 4k supercap in the game. That's horrible and ruined the fights. Bring more supercaps tactic is a bullsh*t. No chanches for smaller corps and create big blobs and create mega blue blobs such a pl/raiden/ewoke/nc. idiotism with 500 supercaps blob.

100-150+ supercap build every single month, need to stop this.
Need increasing their building times at least 3 times longer time too.
Give chance to kill them in the CSAA and slowing down their new rising.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#30 - 2012-02-17 11:57:57 UTC
I've mentioned in the past that I think the easiest and best way to limit titans is to tied them the the FC position in a fleet. Titans are supposed to be the centerpiece of a grand armada, so no matter how many you have, requiring a critical mass of fleet members getting fleet boosts from them should be required to power up more than just their ability to move around. I personally think around 200 people should be required, but that slants things in favor of huge groups possibly too much. A more realistic number would be 100, since if you can't field 100 pilots you have no business fielding a titan.

If you do this, any given side could field no more than 3-4 titans in a given fight. And 3-4 titans, while definitely a strong battlefield presence, are not unbeatable without more titans.

Super carrier blobs aren't a real issue ever since they lost their drones. They are still pretty hard to kill, and thats all right, but they can no longer dominate every battlefield just by being there. If you enemy brings a HAC fleet, or BC fleet, or similar small sized hull, then you can just start eating the supers for lunch, one at a time, and all they can do is RR each other(hence being hard as hell to kill).

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Isaiah Harms
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-02-18 00:01:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Isaiah Harms
Hmmm..... You all are still trying to limit a game that is not supposed to have limitations.

If you want to do something about the "supercap problem" I suggest you train up some nice dreadnought skills, find about 50 other friends and do just that.

If this is REALLY a problem for you. GO shoot them. Man up and be a hero instead of whining out of game.

And please don't argue with me until you've done the damage projections on how quickly 50 Dreads take down a Titan.

P.S.

Oh.. and yes you will probably lose your dread. Maybe that's too much of a risk for you? I'd risk it for taking out his Titan. But maybe here's the real issue: Risk averse players who don't want to teamwork with others to drop Titans.

Good luck with your proposal.

- 1
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#32 - 2012-02-18 04:43:16 UTC
Isaiah Harms wrote:
Hmmm..... You all are still trying to limit a game that is not supposed to have limitations.


Fly a combat Cap ship into highsec, then.

Just because it's a sandbox doesn't mean there aren't limitations, it just means that the limitations should be applied with as delicate a hand as the designers can manage.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#33 - 2012-02-18 06:38:08 UTC
Hey, if CCP will remove these stupid cyno restrictions... I will gladly fly some pew pew caps into hisec.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#34 - 2012-02-18 08:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Isaiah Harms wrote:
If you want to do something about the "supercap problem" I suggest you train up some nice dreadnought skills, find about 50 other friends and do just that.

- 1


2012 Jan 14 Pl/Raiden/Nc./Evoke fleet with +100 titans and +400 supercarriers.
http://iaro.3dmax.hu/images/2012/02/18/20120114112305_4133.jpg

Your idea is fail, but bring there 50 dreadnoughts and we will laughing out loud.
Do you really dont know what happening in the game, and talking about stupid ideas.
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-02-18 14:52:58 UTC
I think the easiest solution to this problem is remove turrets from Titans. Seriously, why do they even have them in the first place? Turret damage should come from Dreads only as the Titans have their DD for Capitals and structures. No need for the ridiculous situation we have now with Titans instapopping Rifters!

Carriers and Super Carriers as so ubiquitous that anyone dropping them will be hotdropped in return and as much as fighters do some damage to sub-capital fleets, they are a lot less effective and just like any other drone, they can be destroyed.

Carriers and Super Carriers without drones are pretty useless as an offensive weapon even though they can still provide RR.

I really do think the problem is not Capital ships themselves, just the stupid situation with Titans.
Isaiah Harms
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-02-18 16:00:05 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Isaiah Harms wrote:
If you want to do something about the "supercap problem" I suggest you train up some nice dreadnought skills, find about 50 other friends and do just that.

- 1


2012 Jan 14 Pl/Raiden/Nc./Evoke fleet with +100 titans and +400 supercarriers.
http://iaro.3dmax.hu/images/2012/02/18/20120114112305_4133.jpg

Your idea is fail, but bring there 50 dreadnoughts and we will laughing out loud.
Do you really dont know what happening in the game, and talking about stupid ideas.


Wow...You linked me a photo. Big whoop. Not impressed unless you get me a pic of the Titan pilot's tears when his Titan goes poof in under 30 seconds :)

Ever had 50 Dreads siege on your Titan? The tactic is sound. It's not a matter of whether the dreads will survive. They won't. And isk wise you may spend more to kill one titan.

However a Titan is MUCH harder to acquire than a dreadnought. So yes. Man up. Oh... and you won't have any Triage carriers on field for that Titan :)
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#37 - 2012-02-18 17:11:35 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
I've mentioned in the past that I think the easiest and best way to limit titans is to tied them the the FC position in a fleet. Titans are supposed to be the centerpiece of a grand armada, so no matter how many you have, requiring a critical mass of fleet members getting fleet boosts from them should be required to power up more than just their ability to move around. I personally think around 200 people should be required, but that slants things in favor of huge groups possibly too much. A more realistic number would be 100, since if you can't field 100 pilots you have no business fielding a titan.

If you do this, any given side could field no more than 3-4 titans in a given fight. And 3-4 titans, while definitely a strong battlefield presence, are not unbeatable without more titans.

Super carrier blobs aren't a real issue ever since they lost their drones. They are still pretty hard to kill, and thats all right, but they can no longer dominate every battlefield just by being there. If you enemy brings a HAC fleet, or BC fleet, or similar small sized hull, then you can just start eating the supers for lunch, one at a time, and all they can do is RR each other(hence being hard as hell to kill).


This is a simple and easy way to do this, yes teh titan should HAVE to be fleet command position if its in fleet. The fleet should haev a critical mass (100 is reasonable) to be able to even put the titan in it. You coul do similar with supercarriers too, say only allow 1 supercarrier in a fleet for every 50 pilots, so a max of 5 supercarriers in a max size fleet.

The only thing that I can see happening is that in peopels home systems you'd get titans and supercarriers flying along with you fleetless and therefore disabling teh limiting factors... So possibly limit that by removing the ability to rep (in any way, including cap) any ship that isnt in fleet with you. This would allow people to field their massive ships in home defence in huge numbers if they wanted to but suffer some drastic limitation.

Most importantly a travelling fleet would be limited to 1 titan and 5 supercarriers, and only this at a max size fleet.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#38 - 2012-02-18 20:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Isaiah Harms wrote:
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Isaiah Harms wrote:
If you want to do something about the "supercap problem" I suggest you train up some nice dreadnought skills, find about 50 other friends and do just that.

- 1


2012 Jan 14 Pl/Raiden/Nc./Evoke fleet with +100 titans and +400 supercarriers.
http://iaro.3dmax.hu/images/2012/02/18/20120114112305_4133.jpg

Your idea is fail, but bring there 50 dreadnoughts and we will laughing out loud.
Do you really dont know what happening in the game, and talking about stupid ideas.


Wow...You linked me a photo. Big whoop. Not impressed unless you get me a pic of the Titan pilot's tears when his Titan goes poof in under 30 seconds :)

Ever had 50 Dreads siege on your Titan? The tactic is sound. It's not a matter of whether the dreads will survive. They won't. And isk wise you may spend more to kill one titan.

However a Titan is MUCH harder to acquire than a dreadnought. So yes. Man up. Oh... and you won't have any Triage carriers on field for that Titan :)


Again just for you.
We realized you dont know what happen in the game. You think it about 30 sec a titan with 50 dread where is 500 supercaps and support fleet ? I realy dont like retards, who know nothing from something but talk idiot things. You cant kill anything there. "The tactic is sound". Oh my.....

Man, today the tactic against supercaps is bring more supercaps. No one using dreads again supercap blob, because they are so useless.
Most of supercap pilots went to the alliances (such as Raiden or Pandemic Legion) which have the most supercaps and those alliances made blueblobfest.
The biggest alliance is the goon in the game, they have over 6000pilot but they dont want to bring their dread fleets there, because dread so useless against massive supercap fleets and they dont want to lost them.
Do you think they or any big alliances cant bring +300 dreads against supercap blobs ? They can, but dont want to losing them and wasting resources over and over.
And yes i linked you a photo because you i guess you live in high sec and we know you never see 500 supercaps and i show you, what happen in the present days in 0.0.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#39 - 2012-02-18 23:03:29 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
I think the easiest solution to this problem is remove turrets from Titans. Seriously, why do they even have them in the first place? Turret damage should come from Dreads only as the Titans have their DD for Capitals and structures. No need for the ridiculous situation we have now with Titans instapopping Rifters!

Carriers and Super Carriers as so ubiquitous that anyone dropping them will be hotdropped in return and as much as fighters do some damage to sub-capital fleets, they are a lot less effective and just like any other drone, they can be destroyed.

Carriers and Super Carriers without drones are pretty useless as an offensive weapon even though they can still provide RR.

I really do think the problem is not Capital ships themselves, just the stupid situation with Titans.

Carriers still have drones FYI. Its just super carriers that lost them. Carriers are effectively unchanged, other than T2 triage(which is much happy times).

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2012-02-19 00:40:20 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
I think the easiest solution to this problem is remove turrets from Titans. Seriously, why do they even have them in the first place? Turret damage should come from Dreads only as the Titans have their DD for Capitals and structures. No need for the ridiculous situation we have now with Titans instapopping Rifters!

Carriers and Super Carriers as so ubiquitous that anyone dropping them will be hotdropped in return and as much as fighters do some damage to sub-capital fleets, they are a lot less effective and just like any other drone, they can be destroyed.

Carriers and Super Carriers without drones are pretty useless as an offensive weapon even though they can still provide RR.

I really do think the problem is not Capital ships themselves, just the stupid situation with Titans.


You can't and as far as I know have never been able to DD structures. Removing the turrets makes titans into mobile JBs and little else. Nerf the tracking, and maybe the damage.