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PI / Moon Mining profit comparison; please check my math
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Fahzja
Envirocore
#1 - 2012-02-14 00:40:48 UTC
Recently became interested in comparing PI profits with the potential profits from moon mining. I've always been interested in moon mining, but never jumped in to it.

First some #'s to establish a base for comparison. In PI at the moment, on ~2 day extractions in losec I pull in ~1 bil isk / character / month. That's with pretty minimal effort involved, after the initial set up of course. I reasoned that moon mining profits could potentially exceed this given that so much more effort is involved.

Now, it's been a few years since I launched a moon probe, so I'm still unsure how resources are distributed. With that said, I started to figure costs for running complex reactions only on a large POS (which I understand requires large tower?)

- Fuel cost, large tower @ 23 hr/day = 40 blocks/hr = 920/day = 27600/month @ 14000 ISK/unit = 386m ISK/month (small tower by comparison = 96m ISK)

- Reaction cost

For the sake of simplicity I'll be buying materials outright. I'll use Fullerides as one example, but the outcome was the same for most every complex reaction.

Material cost, 100 units/run (on what I'm assuming are 1hr runs):
Carbon Polymers = 2300/day @ 1450 ISK/unit = 3.3M ISK/day = 100m ISK/month
Platinum Technite = 2300/day @ 66000 ISK/unit = 152mil/day = 4.5b ISK/month

- Reaction profit:
1 Run = 3000 Fullerides = 69000 units/day @ 2300 ISK/unit = +158m ISK/day = +4.74b ISK/month

So all things considered, assuming I produced 23 hrs/day for 30 days and that my math is accurate, I just lost 246m ISK. Consider, too, all the hauling involved just adds insult to injury.

Did I figure this correctly? Is this all meant to be done from start to finish? Meaning, from extraction to end product?
Caghji
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-02-14 01:20:18 UTC
I have run 20+ moons for the last 2 years

While maybe not as much money as PI in general it brings in the isk



Interested where you got your prices for the intermediate goo -

I run POS tower pairs - maybe not the best effeciant isk but that's just me

i base all my calculations on the raw product extracted

A large POS can run a simple reactor for intermediate that generates enough intermediate goo for TWO towers

and feed a complex reactor

so every week i shuffle the goo around between each pair of towers - one producing one intermediate goo product the other producing the second intermediate goo product

Any time i have looked at intermediate goo products they seem over priced compared to the raw product that i have to suppliment to those moon towers that are missing one of the ores

I doubt if the lower sec lower end moon goo can match up to good PIing - but i had built my ittle moon kingdom before PI came along so i stick with it - i do PI as well ofc

TLDR

Check your prices again using raw materials that would build the intermediate goo

Caghji
Layla LC
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-02-14 01:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Layla LC
To help you out...

100 Units of base moon goo = 200 Compound Units

100 Compound Units = 3000 Fullerides

200 Compound Units = 6000 Fullerides

Edit:

Check this out...http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=619574
Fahzja
Envirocore
#4 - 2012-02-14 01:57:01 UTC
Layla LC wrote:
To help you out...

100 Units of base moon goo = 200 Compound Units

100 Compound Units = 3000 Fullerides

200 Compound Units = 6000 Fullerides

Edit:

Check this out...http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=619574


Awesome link. Will spend more time w/ it in the next week.

Rest of the info confuses me. I will not be running the entire production chain.

Yes, 100 Compound Units = 3000 Fullerides, as you state. And 200/6000 respectively. Just as I state that 2300 Compound Units = 69000 Fullerides.

But I will not be producing the compounds. I will only be buying them, hauling to silo, and inputting at a 1:30 ratio. Meaning, that double compound production is out of the picture. That considered, there is no calculated profit.

Now, apparently, I can expect profits by adding in the compound production step.

Tho, the main thing that bothers me is how PI and Moon Production profit/effort can be so disproportionate. Or SEEMS so disproportionate.
Fahzja
Envirocore
#5 - 2012-02-14 02:03:01 UTC
Caghji wrote:
Interested where you got your prices for the intermediate gooCaghji


Checked prices on eve-central while I wait on my clone jump. But thanks for the info; will be messing around with it in the next weeks.
Layla LC
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-02-14 02:08:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Layla LC
EDIT ALL:

Just convo me in game..online now
Caghji
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-02-14 11:46:18 UTC
Ah k - well think of it this way

you are settng up a large POS and paying all the fuel bills for it

you then are going and paying for all the raw material or intermediate goo bills as well to put into your reactors

you are then trying to compete on price with someone who is setting up and running a large pos but who is not having to pay for all the raw materials, intermediate goo because their large pos is mining those materials at no extra cost above normal fuel costs as well as running the reactors producing intermediate goo etc etc (mining the goo and running a simple and a complex reactor can all be done with one large caldari tower.)

The big profit you are missing is all in the raw material values which in turn is reflected in the intermediate goo PLUS profit margin chucked on by the seller (why intemediate goo is over priced)

I sell straight to jita buyers (cos even after 2 years my management of corp cash flow sucks)

I make sylramic fibres a production line of hypersynaptic fibres (requires three towers) tungsten carbide and crystalline carbide - all low sec moon stuff (the dysprosium is my most expensive single buy off the market)

My POS kingdom pulls in just under 5.8 billion a week (current market prices)

POS fuel and extra raw moon goo(900mil worth) i have to buy takes off 3.4 billion (we manufacture our own fuel cells and pay corp members jita prices for their PI fuel supply)



leaving - 2.4 billion a week profit (at current market prices)

I also then manufacture tungsten and crystaline armoured plate from the sylramic fibres and tungsten/crystalline carbide which adds about 10% to those combined materials at current market prices

TLDR

You are (suggesting) paying for raw materials AND fuel

most moon miners just pay for fuel - and mine the raw materials at no extra cost
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-02-14 12:06:03 UTC
Well, that's the difference between Moon mining and reactions.
You are doing both, but it sounds like most of your profit is actually coming from the Moon mining, and you get a little bit extra by doing reactions.
Fahzja
Envirocore
#9 - 2012-02-14 12:34:42 UTC
Caghji wrote:
TLDR

You are (suggesting) paying for raw materials AND fuel

most moon miners just pay for fuel - and mine the raw materials at no extra cost


Makes sense, and it is something I considered. While I guess I could've spent a bit of extra time really mapping out the whole chain, I also figured it is reasonable to just jump in anywhere and see at least *some* profit.

Many thanks for everyone's help.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#10 - 2012-02-14 12:40:33 UTC
Fahzja wrote:

- Fuel cost, large tower @ 23 hr/day = 40 blocks/hr = 920/day = 27600/month @ 14000 ISK/unit = 386m ISK/month (small tower by comparison = 96m ISK)



not sure about the moongoo bits (been *far* too long since I've dabbled) ... you're off by 1h/day (30h/month) though on your fuel calcs.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-02-14 14:05:15 UTC
Fahzja wrote:
Caghji wrote:
TLDR

You are (suggesting) paying for raw materials AND fuel

most moon miners just pay for fuel - and mine the raw materials at no extra cost


Makes sense, and it is something I considered. While I guess I could've spent a bit of extra time really mapping out the whole chain, I also figured it is reasonable to just jump in anywhere and see at least *some* profit.

Many thanks for everyone's help.


The profitability on reactions can fluctuate a lot
Many of them are not profitable at all while others can be very profitable. You need to research it a lot.
Salcon Cliff
Zephyr Corp
#12 - 2012-02-14 14:33:27 UTC
I played with reactions a while back by setting up some towers in w-space and hauling in/reacting/hauling out. It has been a while, but what was true then probably still applies:
- Do the math carefully. Some items can be very profitable, others a money sink;
- Check price history, make sure you are not basing a decision on a price spike;
- It takes a lot of money to get started;
- A single tower may not be as efficient as two or three if you want to maximize your CPU use;
- Be careful of buying too much stock, prices will vary before you finish your run.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#13 - 2012-02-14 16:52:36 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Fahzja wrote:

- Fuel cost, large tower @ 23 hr/day = 40 blocks/hr = 920/day = 27600/month @ 14000 ISK/unit = 386m ISK/month (small tower by comparison = 96m ISK)



not sure about the moongoo bits (been *far* too long since I've dabbled) ... you're off by 1h/day (30h/month) though on your fuel calcs.


I believe this is true.

Although the servers are only up for 23 hours per day, I recall reading somewhere that sever down time does not interfere with reactions. you will still get 24 hours/day output unless server downtime is more than 1 hour as it is when a large patch is applied.
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm.
#14 - 2012-02-14 23:21:18 UTC
Even when a large patch is applied you get 24 hours worth. Skills don't stop training on long patches. Why do you think everyone says set a long skill for patchday? Likewise you should stock/empty silos before a major patch and top up your fuel.

Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Lowsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. www.capitalstorm.net
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-02-15 05:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
OP is confused because at the moment Fullerides are not profitable to react. (well, to be exact there is a razor-thin profit but it is less than 5% - "not worth the effort" and can go negative with fairly small bump in raw material prices)

I believe the market is distorted by reaction materials coming out of alliances that control Technetium moons.

(also nobody reacts from intermediates bought off market; do your math with two large towers and the simple reactions from raw goo)

Moon reactions have a requirement; Spreadsheet Warrioring V. Have you trained yours?
Caghji
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-02-16 01:02:49 UTC
wallenbergaren wrote:
Well, that's the difference between Moon mining and reactions.
You are doing both, but it sounds like most of your profit is actually coming from the Moon mining, and you get a little bit extra by doing reactions.


Yes - tho that depends on the market

In most respects by going from start (moon mining with paired towers low and medium quality moon goo) to finish (complex reactions - t2 building materials) AND have a wide variety of products to sell on the market you protect yourself somewhat to market shifts in price while never maximising profit.