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Can Miners adapt? - A personal observation First post
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Vaerah Vahrokha

Vahrokh Consulting

Likes received: 5,809

#21 - 2012-02-12 19:58:57 UTC | Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha

Tanking a mack is an exercise of futility.

All you get is less efficiency all the time, while the suicide ganker will just need to bring in 1 more thrasher / catalyst for those 10 seconds he needs.

Just put the loss of some ships per year in the balance sheet as "operating costs" and be done with it.

Jori McKie wrote:

I have no clue, if those guys were actual humans or bots. Any human who paid attention would have seen the message and would have known it' not safe anymore at the latest when they saw the Mackinaw wreck but how many human miners pay attention when they mine? The same can be said about bots not every bot user has set his bot to dock/log out if.......
After my ganking run i check the system from time to time with another alt and i never saw local above 35 anymore even not on Sundays and when i log in my ganking alt the local drops at least 3 or more peeps instantly. Lasting effect i would say.

I'll give you several clues.

Why does anyone mine? Certainly not for the fat income.
In fact it's because it's as close to a passive activity as it gets, only rivalled by BPO research and PI.
Therefore people who can spare a PC at the office or wherever, can just recycle their research / PI / invention / datacore alts into something using the same stats: mining (the alternative is to leave them rot inside a station).

Now, "passive" means that the miner - expecially the ice miner - really do that.
Therefore they warp a mack to a belt, turn on the lasers and then go away / alt tab + play another MMO or just watch TV / paint try (both more interesting than mining).
When the mining noise ends - after 13-18 minutes later, the guy alt tabs back and goes to empty the ship and restart.

Therefore here it is the explanation why they are not *that* reactive when you talk to them: they are just not there.

And no, they don't care if they get 1 ship popped a month, watching TV / paint dry is still much better.

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Krixtal Icefluxor

INLAND EMPIRE Galactic

Likes received: 114,583

#22 - 2012-02-12 20:09:12 UTC | Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Yup....this.....and Shield Repair Drones and FLEEING are about it.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck." - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882


Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting Likes received: 5,809	#23 - 2012-02-12 20:10:25 UTC Read above so you can read why a miner won't timely launch any kind of drone. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials

Krixtal Icefluxor

INLAND EMPIRE Galactic

Likes received: 114,583

#24 - 2012-02-12 20:12:16 UTC | Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Read above so you can read why a miner won't timely launch any kind of drone.

Can't find what you are referring to.

But I think I KNOW what you are referring to.

The Drones should already be out and repairing the Mack anyway all the time while mining. No need to have them 'waiting' in the hold for an emergency.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck." - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Bat Country Pandemic Horde 19,001
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Horde Likes received: 19,001	#25 - 2012-02-12 20:42:29 UTC Tore Vest wrote: Jori McKie wrote: the local dropped more or less instantly from 35 to ~15. . Do bots have a setting for that ? Theres an app for that

David Grogan

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 341

#26 - 2012-02-12 23:57:25 UTC

Jori McKie wrote:

I had found a sweet spot for occasiaionally LvL 4 mission running with my alt but i was a little disturbed about the local. 35 peeps in a system everbody would say in the boondocks is understatement. That made me curious and i checked the system and to my surprise there is an Ice Belt filled with Mackinaws.
Sure i'm a lowsec pirate but i didn't know anything about highsec ganking so it was time for that experience. To have a slight challenge my goal was to find the smallest ship able to kill a Mackinaw in a 0.5 and 0.6 system and with the latest buff in Destroyer surely they would be a good candidate. So i started my own test runs, to determinate the EHP of different fitted Mackinaws and how many volleys of a specific weapon system could get fired until Concord will show up.

For my first gank i started with a 1400mm Arti fitting on a Typhoon and yep the Mackinaw popped and surprisingly the local dropped more or less instantly from 35 to ~15. You can draw your own conclusion for me it was a nice side effect.
After some more runs i finally thought i determinated the fitting of a Mackinaw my Trasher, Cane and Tornado can and cannot handle in a 0.5 and 0.6 system. While doing the test runs i was thinking what would i do and how i would fit a Mackinaw to avoid being ganked randomly under the assumption that any ship is gankable even with a bloated tank. My first thought was proper tank fitted mackinaw, my second a fleet booster and miners obviously know about that option because of the Orca but are they using the Orca just to boost mining or more?

I was going to find out that soon. I was pretty confident about my knowledge in ganking Mackinaws and the other day i found my next target. A nice tanked Mackinaw to heavy tanked for my Trasher with Condord already in the belt and myself to lazy to get them i out, i jumped into a Tornado. Everything was in position and i fired the guns but something wasn't right that Mackinaw didn't die to my Alpha Tornado.
I scanned the surviving Mackinaw again which was in half Armor to check if i missed something but no that fitting used to be gankable with my Tornado. Now i was really curious and i scanned the nearby Orca and hell yes that ship had fitted a "Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II" mod.

I smiled and left with the thought, why the hell not more miner just use their Orca for some extra tank boost. That boost gives you at least 2k extra EHP, enough to survive a solo ganker. A Tengu booster with a Mindlink and a good Mackinaw fit can get you up to 18k EHP (no imps) to gank that you need at least 2 Tornados. A booster isn't a small Investition skillwise but you need only one to boost at max 250 miner.

Why not more highsec miners get social and combine their resources to be more safe? Is highsec in this regard antisocial because there is no force to adapt and the result is solo running the PvE content (except Incursions) or are highsec peeps just refusing to adapt and insisting the rules have to change so they haven't to adapt the slightest?
It is possible to adapt example is the guy which used his Orca to boost his tank.

tl'dr version:

i need to pad my killboard by ganking mackinaws.... nothing new to see here Roll

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Duvida

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 105

#27 - 2012-02-13 00:26:55 UTC

This was actually constructive. I was expecting a 'how dare people like something that I don't like' thread, but not something as well put together as this. (Even though I'd be on the receiving end of the gank)

One thing, I didn't think that someone could use their own armor and shield drones on their own ship? At least I haven't seen it done. On someone else's ship, I could see that in a mining operation.

Jori McKie

Hedion University

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 298

#28 - 2012-02-13 00:57:19 UTC

David Grogan wrote:

tl'dr version:

i need to pad my killboard by ganking mackinaws.... nothing new to see here Roll

Mabye i didn't made it clear, i ganked with my mission running alt not with my main (this char) that was about 3weeks ago. I don't take part in the ganks my corp mates currently doing, they are on their own mission. I will leave the rest for you to figure out yourself.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

leich

Nocturnal Romance

Cynosural Field Theory.

Likes received: 62

#29 - 2012-02-13 00:58:28 UTC

as a ganker i would say please adapt.

The harder your make it for me to kill you the more challange you provide the more enjoyable the ganking is.

Ive mentioned this before in other posts currently i think it is a little to easy. You can jump in from low sec warp to a belt and catch not only the miner but his pod.

Care bear tears fill me with glee but i want to work for those tears.

Corina Jarr

en Welle Shipping Inc.

Likes received: 1,380

#30 - 2012-02-13 02:10:05 UTC

Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Read above so you can read why a miner won't timely launch any kind of drone.

Last I checked you cannot self repair with drones.

Ris Dnalor

Tribal Liberation Force

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 616

#31 - 2012-02-13 02:30:33 UTC

Corina Jarr wrote:

Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Read above so you can read why a miner won't timely launch any kind of drone.

Last I checked you cannot self repair with drones.

aye, you're correct, unless this has changed recently.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

Qolde

Supercon

Killer Yankee

Likes received: 6

#32 - 2012-02-13 02:40:08 UTC

Note: I am an experienced miner hiding behind an alt for my own protection.

Anyways, I am already more than capable of flying a well-tanked, go-sod*****-yourself Hulk. But with the recent buff in destroyers and the introduction of the tier 3 battlecruisers, I realized that flying a Hulk that can muster an incredible 27-28k tank has become pointless as all the gankers have to do is bring an couple of extra dessies. Of course, I don't fit any faction/name mods on my ship so that the Hulk wouldn't be as enticing.

Of course, given my adaptation, I have not lost a single Hulk in my entire career accept for that one instance when I was moving my Hulk and I failed to check my faction standings with the Gallente Federation (that was years ago).

Since Crucible, I have noticed that my own truly-tanked mining-related vessel I have is the Orca. Mustering an awesome-sauce EHP of 265k-268k along with overheated tank mods and fleet boosts, the Orca is (bar non) the most toughest ship of it's class for high-sec miners. And this is not including faction/named mods. Of course, the Rorqual will top that (hands down). But we are talking about mining in systems where the Rorqual is not allowed to enter.

And with the fact that anything in the ore hold and corporate hangar bay are completely lost in the ensuing destruction of the ship and with the fact that typical T2 (non-faction, non-named mods) are providing this level of protection and are not worth much in the market compared to their expensive equivalents, a well-tanked Orca's sole purpose is to make any gank attempts as expensive as possible so that very little to no profit is made from the gank.

Even if the gankers are in it for the lols (which means they will no doubt gank at a loss anyways), the Orca will make sure that it flips the angry bird at the gankers knowing that it served its purpose well while going down in flames.

Valentyn3

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Likes received: 142

#33 - 2012-02-13 03:13:41 UTC

Supercon wrote:

I'm pretty sure that as long as your net loss is still higher than theirs they will keep coming no matter how hard or unprofitable you make it.

You can't put a price on Epeen.

I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg

Sandra Vellocet

Extended Industries

Likes received: 39

#34 - 2012-02-13 04:29:47 UTC

Mike712 wrote:

If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk.

[Rokh, Mining Rokh]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Co-Processor II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Survey Scanner II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II

Large Drone Mining Augmentor II
Large Cargohold Optimization I
Large Cargohold Optimization I

Mining Drone II x5

That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously?

Huh ?!

LankTech Phoenixum Colligiturum 14
Donald MacRury LankTech Phoenixum Colligiturum Likes received: 14	#35 - 2012-02-13 07:04:55 UTC Do ECM drones actually work? and what would they do for a miner against a ganker?

Mortis vonShadow

Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.

Likes received: 538

#36 - 2012-02-13 07:56:09 UTC | Edited by: Mortis vonShadow

Mike712 wrote:

Really? You can pull 6000+ m3 in 2min 5sec with this setup? Cuz I can with my hulk. All V's in related skills, the two +5% to mining yield implants and Orca support (with all V's in related skills). What do you get again? Can you strip a belt in two hours with two mining battleships? Didn't think so. So before you go around shooting your mouth off, nothing out bulk mines a hulk, its what it was designed to do. You wanna be safe while mining in hisec, good luck. EVE is all about pvp, combat, industry, market warfare. Industrial ships are just that, designed with industry in mind, not combat. The tank on exhumers and mining barges are to allow you time to get out of trouble. If you can't figure out how to use d-scan when someone enters local, you deserve to get popped. Mining in a battleship. And a Rokh at that. You've reduced that magnificent ship to mule status. You're friends should just shoot you themselves.

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen. And some days, you're just a man with a gun.

Jori McKie

Hedion University

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 298

#37 - 2012-02-13 08:49:19 UTC | Edited by: Jori McKie

Here is the thing,
- Ice mining is maybe the worst profession in EVE ISK/h wise.
- It's kinda boring and more of a "passive" thing you do in between
- Ice miners have no other option as Mack, Hulk and for some few Orca. Many seems to be aware what risk they are taking.

EVE is evolution in fast forward, especially in PvP you have to adapt. If you have bad fits you are killed more often, if you have a bad tactic you are killed more often, either you adapt/learn or you will be killed more often simple as that.
The same rule applies to ice miners, in bad fits you are ganked more often.

This is what i don't get, although many ice miners seems to be aware of the risk there is no action. If i'm aware i'm doing a risk profession in EVE with less rewards i would try to avoid any unnecessary losses. There are 2 standard fits for Macks, one with mining upgrades in low slots and only 7k EHP, the other with cargo expander and about 13k tank (boosted up to 18k). The first one will give you more yield per min but it has a bigger risk, the second one is more safe, less yield with a little less risk. A human has two options, mine "active" with more yield and react to any threat or be more "passive" with the second one.
The Hulk or Orca is an upgrade to more safety but why not more ice miners socialize and build/join a mining corp setup mining ops with an Orca as mining booster and a dedicated Tengu shield booster (As ice belts are stationary, buy/build a POS in that system and the boosters are 100% safe, even wardecs won't bother you because of the recent policy changes CCP made)

You never will be 100% safe from ganking but with the described setup you can rule out the dumb gankers and force them to get more numbers, but getting more numbers is effort. You see? My conlcusion from my personal experience is that highsec and the false assumption it's safe let you stop thinking or is infested by bots otherwise i can't explain so many bad fits i saw on Macks.

Many described the new Tier 3 BC as the new ganking ship, that is only partly true. The Tier 3 BC in particular the Tornado are used as Alpha ships, you need them in higher security systems like 0.7 and up. In lower sec system 0.5 and 0.6 the DPS variant of Destroyer and Tier 2 BC are used and better. With Tier 3 BC you are barly cost effective against Macks as 1 Tornado has about 9k Alpha Damage any semi good Mack fit has that EHP. The Destroyers are the ships which you can do profitable ganking with.

Donald MacRury wrote:

Do ECM drones actually work? and what would they do for a miner against a ganker?

ECM Drones won't work vs any Alpha ship like Tornado as you will be dead before you can react. They can be used vs Cane/Brutix and Destroyers but you have to be active and you have to know that ECM is chance based so you may or may not jam the ship you are targeting. As a rule of thumb, 5 ECM Vespa Drones easily jam a Destroyer, 5 ECM Hornets should do the trick on Destroyers most times too. The Problem is if any smart ganker sees your ECM Drones he will react accordingly.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Parthonax

Likes received: 21

#38 - 2012-02-13 09:09:23 UTC

Mining itself isn't the problem , the problem is in my opinion is that the general perception of most people that mining is being done by bots
This is certainly true if you are talking about ice mining , the whole icemining proces is slow and relative boring , it is just screaming for a macro
Different is ore mining there are plenty of people out there trying to make a living with several accounts or small groups of people mining away , i can imagine that after a stressful day att work watching your stripminers chew rock can be relaxing , for others relaxing means blowing things up
For ice mining macros ,one of the better solutions is to move all ice in a new kind of grav site , that is big enough and that can last a few hours or a day but that needs to be scanned out daily , it will initially make ice much more expensive but atleast people using macros will find their current bot useless , also make the rats in those grav sites harder and more of them , macks can't tank well

For ore mining , a small mentallity change is needed and some minor game mechanics changes, rmoving or replacing roguedrone droppings will go a long way to help the mining carreer but is only one step , maybe also a bit more grid and pcu to fit a better tank just ideas that have been floating around for years on these forums , but a new mining barge, no i don't see the point of that unless you want to restrict it to low or nullsec

The main challenge for CCP is to make mining again into a important , respected and much needed profession

so this is permanence

Anya Ohaya

School of Applied Knowledge

Caldari State

Likes received: 201

#39 - 2012-02-13 09:28:05 UTC

Mike712 wrote:

If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk.

[Rokh, Mining Rokh]

[...] snip [...]

That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously?

EFT says the ore yield on that Rokh is 891, versus 1209 for a hulk with t1 crystals.

The thing is with mining, the odds of getting ganked are low enough that tanking doesn't make sense from a purely rational (expected net ISK per hour) standpoint.

By odds I mean the normal odds. Sometimes the odds can change. Perhaps during hulkageddon a mining battleship has a better net ISK per hour. On the other hand some people would just see a mining Rokh as a challenge.

Jori McKie

Hedion University

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 298

#40 - 2012-02-13 09:32:03 UTC

Just some numbers so maybe some miners will adapt.

Alpha Tornado
Damage output is about 9k

0.5 system
Concord needs about 16s to react.

Thrasher All V (no imps)
You can get out 8 volleys from 200mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1k volleys.
Damage output is 8k.

Catalyst All V (no imps)
You can get out 8 volleys from Light Neutron Blaster. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.16k volleys.
Damage output is 9.3k.

Cane All V (no imps)
You can get out 8 volleys from 420mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.7k volleys.
Damage output is 13.7k

Brutix All V (no imps)
You can get out 6 volleys from Neutron Blaster. Wiith a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 2.5k volleys.
Damage output is 15.3k

0.6 system
Concord needs about 9s to react.

Thrasher All V (no imps)
You can get out 5 volleys from 200mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1k volleys.
Damage output is 5k.

Catalyst All V (no imps)
You can get out 5 volleys from Light Neutron Blaster. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.16k volleys.
Damage output is 5.8k.

Cane All V (no imps)
You can get out 5 volleys from 420mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.7k volleys.
Damage output is 8.5k

Brutix All V (no imps)
You can get out 4 volleys from Neutron Blaster. Wiith a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 2.5k volleys.
Damage output is 10k

So with a decent Mack fit you are safe against any solo ganker in a 0.6 system. Draw your own conclusions.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

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