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***CSM Interstellar Debate - Mining Profession***

First post
Author
testobjekt
Goonswarm Federation Human Resources
#21 - 2012-02-12 16:17:16 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
The biggest single fix to mining is already in the pipeline under CSM6 - removing of drone alloy drops and replacing them with bounties.

If you don't understand what an impact that has on mining, then you probably don't belong in this thread!



this

also: remove abc from w-space
VCBee 2fast2furious
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2012-02-12 16:40:12 UTC
testobjekt wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
The biggest single fix to mining is already in the pipeline under CSM6 - removing of drone alloy drops and replacing them with bounties.

If you don't understand what an impact that has on mining, then you probably don't belong in this thread!



this

also: remove abc from w-space


:xd:
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#23 - 2012-02-12 23:54:14 UTC
My reserved post has been updated. Please see the link below for details.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=783442#post783442

Adapt or Die

Tiger Would
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-02-13 00:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger Would
Henry Haphorn wrote:
Updated as of 12 Feb YC 114

I feel that perhaps I should have required all candidates to post a reply with their own personal answers to the following questions.

Current Questions to all Candidates:


  1. What do you candidates propose that CCP do in terms of gameplay to curb or discourage the use of mining bots without making it too much of a hassle or inconvenience for the legitimate miners out there?
  2. How do you feel about the whole buff/nerf debate regarding the stats of certain exhumers such as the Hulk and Mackinaw? Do you think either/neither should happen?
  3. Should the Orca have its corporate hangar/ore hold become scanneble and should any loot drop from such storage areas of the ship upon destruction of said ship or do you wish to leave it alone as it is?
  4. Do you or do you not believe that iterating on the mining profession is overdue? If so, do you or do you not feel that it deserves its own dedicated expansion?
  5. How hard will you press the issue of the mining profession when you are elected as a member of the Council of Stellar Management?


Not to long ago i came across this particular thread by a guy called Mors Sanctitatis:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59357

The OP in this thread would be my guide line since i think he has absolutely great ideas about mining.

As for questions not answered by this particular thread.
Buff/nerf of certain exumers imo should not happen before changes like suggested in that thread are made to the profession of mining itself. The mining profession will be entirely overhauled if these changes would find their way into the game.

The Orca should be left alone aside from one thing, it does seem logical any cargo in those specific cargoholds would drop when the ship is destroyed. This also, since the changes suggested in the thread i linked will also make mining more profitable, together with the change to alloys that is already in the pipeline, it would only make sense the risk would be higher.

I do not think mining needs an entire expansion on its own, but changes to the mining profession are long overdue imo.
Than again, such a big change as suggested in the thread i linked to would probably be like a entire expansion for CCP Devs to develop.

One of my goals is to have more random players actually attending roundtables instead of me taking a seat. I would just organize it and take notes. However, that said, as i would help setting up focal points for the roundtables, i would definitly put this forward as a focal point. Fact remains, it is up to the players if they think it has any priority and would not be my decision to make.

But i would press for it to be a focal point, since mining is one of the first things you do when you start playing EvE.
And as it is, mining is not the best advert for the game in its current state and therefor does not help new subscriptions.
(Which is another goal of mine, suggesting focal points that will help subscription numbers)

Also, although i hate to admit it, Mittens is right, the removal of alloys is already on the agenda which would most definitly make mining more profitable.

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would

Tiger Would
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-02-13 12:33:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger Would
Bump for what could be a nice debate.

If you have any other questions, dont hesitate to ask in this thread:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=764317#post764317

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would

Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-02-13 12:35:05 UTC
Who is going to speak for the silent majority of players who like mining bots because they keep ship prices low?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Tiger Would
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-02-13 12:50:13 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Who is going to speak for the silent majority of players who like mining bots because they keep ship prices low?


I think you are looking for mittens, though he is part of a not so silent minority.

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would

Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#28 - 2012-02-14 14:16:08 UTC
Bump

Adapt or Die

Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-02-22 15:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
To be honest, the minerals from drones is only *1* facet of problems that have plagued miners for a longass time.

What about the fact that most 0.0 alliances, plainly, just don't want you around.

I have just left BDEAL, where I personally pvp'd non-stop for the month I spent there. The reasons I left were not to do with mining. However, while PVPing there was a constant "omg the miners are in the back pocket jewing again" conversation going on...

I hear CCP is going to try and get rid of moon mining altogether. Why not change the moon minerals to be in the grav sites instead of ABC ores - much like gas sites in wormholes.

The present OTHER issues (not including the money per hour) for choosing mining as a profession as opposed to just going in a drake and ratting/plexing are:

We have to scan these grav sites down.
When we do, it's not a soloable thing.

A PVPer goes into a system and plexes every day. He gets all those hours doing plexes and earning cash. When he finishes a plex a new one appears.
So too with mining, with the exception that when we get into a grav site it takes 3 days to mine that ******* useless spodzilla out before we can get to the new site with AB in it.

Let's face it why even include Crokite anymore? Hemorphite found in low-sec is now more profitable to mine than crokite.

AB are the only ores worthwhile in 0.0 anymore and there's precious little of it. Otherwise we might as well be in low/highsec and take little/no risk - certainly without the annoyances of cloakers and the like.

Or just do plexes/incursions and let the mineral prices rise a bit more.

Also the ship we need to mine in is twice as expensive as most ratting drakes and has the tank of a t1 cruiser and earns half as much. In the meantime they also get the bonus of the odd easteregg office spawn that could earn anywhere from 1b-8b. While they are rare, you only need 1 a year to set you up.

I won't even go on about earning 500m a day doing incursions as CCP already knows about this.

Eve has not grown, only the number of people living in new eden has. The days of regular ninja mining and covertly putting a tower up to mine from are far gone. New Eden needs to expand. Space is supposed to be vast. So where is the wilderness of new eden? The place is full to overflowing with people in every system you go in.

All of these inconsistencies and plain pain that CCP has built into the system need some kind of balance put in where we can earn a decent living doing what we like to do in the game AND that 0.0 alliances find us worthwhile to have around. While mineral prices have changed drastically over the past years presenting that as the most pressing issue facing mining corps and miners in general, it is NOT THE ONLY ISSUE.


Mittens thinks that "the single biggest issue" for miners is the mineral price, but neglects to understand that most miners are not PVPers and while many would like to be in 0.0 just like him - they can't get there - and when they do, it's rarely worth it.

p.s I totally agree with OP about the botters, they need to go and CCP should be doing more about that **** too.

.

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-02-22 16:11:59 UTC
Sorry for simply cross posting but it is very relevant to the discussion.

Post generated in GD: The mining 'buff' falacy.
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-02-23 19:14:28 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Sorry for simply cross posting but it is very relevant to the discussion.

Post generated in GD: The mining 'buff' falacy.


A good read, thanks.

.

Megnamon
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-02-23 19:43:17 UTC
Not running for CSM, but here is my 2 cents on the issue of mining bots...

I think CCP should develop a method for identifying bots such as follows...

In high sec, a pilot can project an electronic verification tag onto a miner (done through either a new module or whatever). This tag gives the ship owner an audio and message warning and has a 15 minute countdown. The ship owner can at any time make a few simple clicks to disable the tag. If this is not done by the end of the countdown, the tagged ship is classified by CONCORD as being "abandoned" and can be aggressied without facing a CONCORD response. Sort of like a reverse global criminal flag.

Thoughts?
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2012-02-23 21:17:06 UTC
Megnamon wrote:
Thoughts?


If it's just clicks it will be defeated by whatever botting program is out there. If it's words (i.e. captcha or something similar), it will just serve to make mining a somehow even more annoying profession than it is. Hugely prone to abuse as well - imagine flying in and tagging every single member of a mining op. It also loses most of its effectiveness if someone is playing with audio disabled.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2012-02-23 21:27:15 UTC
Tiger Would wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Who is going to speak for the silent majority of players who like mining bots because they keep ship prices low?


I think you are looking for mittens, though he is part of a not so silent minority.

Bots don't whine in local when you gank them.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2012-02-23 21:28:15 UTC
Megnamon wrote:
Not running for CSM, but here is my 2 cents on the issue of mining bots...

I think CCP should develop a method for identifying bots such as follows...

In high sec, a pilot can project an electronic verification tag onto a miner (done through either a new module or whatever). This tag gives the ship owner an audio and message warning and has a 15 minute countdown. The ship owner can at any time make a few simple clicks to disable the tag. If this is not done by the end of the countdown, the tagged ship is classified by CONCORD as being "abandoned" and can be aggressied without facing a CONCORD response. Sort of like a reverse global criminal flag.

Thoughts?

sounds like a great way to kill anyone who autopilots to jita, and something every bot will be programmed to instantly shut off

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2012-02-23 21:42:57 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Tiger Would wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Who is going to speak for the silent majority of players who like mining bots because they keep ship prices low?


I think you are looking for mittens, though he is part of a not so silent minority.

Bots don't whine in local when you gank them.


Some players wont whine to give satisfaction either.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#37 - 2012-02-23 21:59:53 UTC
Since I am the only CSM 7 candidate that has made mining my major focus I am happy to address some things I think need to happen.

1. While drone loot changes will put money in miners pockets, isk per hour is not the only problem with mining. To think make that change and mining is fine is just wrong.

2. CCP clearly is not serious about making mining with bots go away. You could easily modify the UI to make screen scraping harder and change client internals to make more sophisticated bots more difficult. In addition patches could change those internal elements regularly to break any bots that did manage to overcome the more complicated requirements. (before anyone says "cannot" I'm a software engineer by trade, I know what I'm talking about).

3. The casual social mining experience we have today should remain, be we are long overdue for another level of mining. There should be new things to mine (comets that drop moon goo for example), new ships and fittings and the upper level of mining should be dynamic (for example ore that can produce multiple minerals that you have to select and mining lasers and drones the need real time input to produce optimal results). Maybe introduce rocks that could require archaeology to recover ancient artifacts.

Think about how combat and mining differ. In combat I make active choices about ships selection and configuration and my real skills affect the outcome. At the highest level mining should offer that same experience.

Those are my ideas, but I want to point out I am creating a panel of advisers to help brainstorm the best suggestions to offer CCP.

I'd be glad to answer any specific questions of offer more details to anyone that is interested.

Bottom line, mining has never really changed. Mining needs to be more than isks/hour. It need fun per hour and diversity in challenges that are more in line with combat.

Issler Dainze
The Miner's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-02-24 07:16:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
I personally would like to call out people in this thread (some of you are pretty smart guys) to make some noise with the upcoming CSM candidates.

The more aware they are that you're here the easier it is to get these things changed in the next iterations.

The less noise you make, the less that will happen for industry.

Consider threads like this where most ice miners in high-sec are either semi-afk, or bots. Where someone has observed the facts and got the killboard stats to prove it.

No matter your thoughts on his methods, you can't really dispute his observations about industry in the game. Things need to change so this profession doesn't just die.

Be your own lobbyist. Get in their individual threads and question the candidates on this stuff. It doesn't really matter who you're voting for as long as you make them understand there are people out there very interested in an industry iteration to make CCP start to re-evaluate the industry problems.

.

Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#39 - 2012-02-27 13:28:22 UTC
Nice to see how we got the ball rolling here. Let's keep this up guys.

As for some of you who posted links to my thread in your signatures, thank you very much. I appreciate it. I also greatly appreciate that the people here have remained quite civilized in this discussion.

Revolution Rising, you are absolutely right when you say that if anyone here in the forums wants the mining profession to be iterated on then they will have to make sure they make their voices heard. If no one tries, then no one should be surprised if this doesn't get iterated on in the foreseeable future.

Adapt or Die

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-02-27 16:36:45 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
2. CCP clearly is not serious about making mining with bots go away. You could easily modify the UI to make screen scraping harder and change client internals to make more sophisticated bots more difficult. In addition patches could change those internal elements regularly to break any bots that did manage to overcome the more complicated requirements. (before anyone says "cannot" I'm a software engineer by trade, I know what I'm talking about).

This is actually what CCP claims they want to try. Unfortunately, we have 30 years of evidence that it is not a cost effective approach.

These technical fixes will always fail because they mean the defender is engaging in a technological arms race with the attackers, who are always more numerous, have more time, and (due to the law of large numbers) are smarter. In addition, they require constant and significant human attention (programmer time), which makes them a constant expense.

Example of these arms races: the copy-protection wars starting in the late 70's; the virus wars.

The only cost effective solution is behavioral detection ("spam filtering"), because bots face an inherent conflict -- if they act exactly like a human (which is hard!), they are less efficient at their task (which raises the cost of doing business). Modern machine learning techniques can tease out behavioral signatures that would never occur to humans, and you can tune the false positive rate down to any level you want.

If CCP wanted to be really clever, they would do what Netflix did - release anonymized databases of log information (of known human players, known bot players, and a set of unclassified players) and have a content for interested parties to come up with the best adaptive bot detector. That would reverse the equation, because now the defenders will be more numerous, have more time, and be on-average smarter than the bot writers. I am sure such a contest would attract attention from outside the EVE community.

WRT what else needs to be done with mining, apart from tweaking down non-mining sources of minerals, an update to the mechanic so that miners who are actively involved (for example, steering their lasers at hotspots) can extract more than AFK miners would seem reasonable.

And it would provide yet another signature for bot-detection.

Trebor -- the true miner's friendTwisted

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery