Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Buff Winmatar

Here is why the OP is off.

Caldari missile ships are better in PVE, yes, we all know. But once you go into the PVP arena, those Caldari PVE ships are much less useful. A Hurricane > Drake, Loki > Tengu, Viator > Raven (in combat, its more useful). Its the natural order of things.

So the solution has been balanced for a while, if you are Caldari and want to PVP, you have to cross train (probably to minmatar). If you are not Caldari and want to PVE, you have to cross train to Caldari.

I wouldn't mind a drastic overhaul so missiles are on par with guns for PvP.

Not true. Mach/Vargur > CNR. Winmatar wins both pvp and pve. Fly Winmatar.

Which is why i specifically refered to "missile" caldari ships (ie offensive ships that use missiles as its primary weapon).

Watch this and tell me why Tengus shuold not be banned. They are so damn OP that it ruins PVP everywhere they go.

FIX IT CCP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn_c2Q2W09U&context=C3a65cb2ADOEgsToPDskIwpHI2fmu7eWGv2r20uKt6

Really? This happens?

Because last I checked HMLs do about 25% less damage than autocannons, which are the lowest-dps close range turret (disregarding the fact that nearly every autocannon boat gets two damage bonuses). And nearly half the DPS of neutrons.

The only reason the tengu is popular is because it effectively gets a 100% dps bonus to HMLs while other T3s get the same 50% bonus to damage that their race's HACs get. Which speaks more to the need to buff the other T3s than to nerf HMLs.

So you'd nerf the damage of the drake and tengu even more. You realize this would mean the only viable pvp ship caldari has would be the falcon, right?

The scorpion is bad, in fleets it's basically just a cheap heavy neut platform and meatshield for maelstroms.

The Rokh is alright but not fantastic, they only reason it's used in any large fleets is because it can outrange maelstroms and abaddons with rails. Otherwise it's a horrible blasterboat.

My mistake for leaving out the blackbird, it's obviously a huuuuge distinction to make between the falcon and BB.

HML drake only does 10-20 dps less than an AC cane? Are you for real? I didn't realize the difference between 370 and 550 was "10-20"

Tengu's DPS would be in line with the other T3s, I guess. But considering the tengu's DPS is the only thing it has going for it over the other T3s, yeah it'd be pretty ******.

The merlin's only use is as a bait ship. The crow is horrible, I don't know what twisted world you live in where that makes it onto a list of viable pvp ships. The harpy is basically a worse enyo.

Meanwhile, let me list all the viable minmatar pvp ships, not counting angel ships:

Rifter
Stiletto
Jaguar
Wolf
Hound
Thrasher
Sabre
Rupture
Stabber Fleet Issue
Huginn
Rapier
Muninn
Vagabond
Loki
Hurricane
Tornado
Sleipnir
Typhoon
Tempest
Maelstrom

It probably would've been quicker for me to list the minmatar ships that aren't widely used in pvp.

lol, it's funny cause it's true.

Now, to be fair, can the tengu squeeze out some pretty good dps? Yes.
Can the tengu get a pretty good tank? Yup.
Can it do both at the same time? Yup.
The this make the tengu OP? Hell no...It makes it really good at pve, but in pvp it's just another missile boat.
The only way the tengu wins in pvp is against ships that it OBVIOUSLY would beat.
Same goes with the drake. They are great ships in pve, but in solo pvp, they're quite easy to defeat because you know EXACTLY whats coming. You know what damage type they're doing, what ranges they're going to do, what their probable dps is, and what their probable tanking capability is. If you can't find the best way to defeat a tengu or a drake, then you shouldn't be involved in pvp because they are some of the most predictable ships in the game. You know everything about them.

Missile boats NEED tank to compete because there are way too many variables in order to put missiles at an advantage over turrets, yet turrets can easily put themselves at an advantage over missiles.
As an example we'll use the raven... It BLOWS... Put it in pve and it does ok, but the drake can out tank it. Hell, the drake can even out dps it because it has more effective dps due to heavy missiles. The Raven requires 2 target painters in order to have better dps with rage over precision AGAINST A BATTLESHIP. The raven only has 6 mid slots, so that leaves 4 for tank. HOWEVER, it receives no tank bonus. That's why more and more missile boat pilots are buying scorpion navy issues. They have 8 mid slots. So 2 for target painters, and still 6 slots for tank.
However, try using a raven, scorpion navy, or raven navy in pvp. Your life is going to suck. However, at least it's only going to suck for a very short period of time cause it ain't gonna take very long to blow you up.

Until missiles are on par with turrets in alpha, then missile boats need something else to be able to compete. I.E. tank...
Missile pilots have enough problems trying to keep up with turrets, even with the tank.

Now, just because tengus and drakes are powerful in a blob doesn't mean they're OP.
In that situation it's all about numbers and fleet communication.

Take a blob of noob ships and you'll be able to do some damage.

Primary gallente pilot here too and I can also say, if you cant 3shot a hulk with a decent fitted brutix you're doing it wrong because an insta arty cane with 20k ehp and 1500scan res with bonus shoots every 8.5sec and the brutix around 2.3s, so?

how long are we going to play like little boys to know who has the biggest sex? -c'mon you should be better than that.

The point is that you can't say missiles are overpowered, you can't say tengus are overpowered or drake. All you can say is that canes eat everyday drakes and so I can safely say that any gallente/amarr BC is crap rather than say other 2 are overpowered?
I can also say that any decent loki armor/double web pilot would eat your both pimped tengus with no problem, you just didn't met one yet or not seen it in that vid since it wasn't the purpose of it other than show internets e-peen (awesome by the way)

It's a matter of point of view, you would like nerfs, I would like balance and that means bring Tiers 2 BC's at the same level than Drake/Hurricane witch would be better than your nerfing argument (is there only a reasonable one)
Why nerf tengu that is supposed to be the most versatile ship as T3? -Tengu is fine, fits his role, now the other 3 are stuck with less versatility so instead of nerfing Tengu for the sake of nerf just to please some nerds just brig the other T3 at the same level.
Then you'll cry because T3's are all overpowered and you can't afford to pvp in those hulls?

C'mon...