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Buffed AF's: MWD or AB?
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#21 - 2012-01-30 15:41:13 UTC
The null themed over-buff heavily favours ships that can dual-prop so if you have the slots go DP, otherwise MWD and tank .. new tracking bonuses should be enough to hit even an AB target unless it is a oldschool bad-ass with a manual piloting fetish (read: persons who flew AFs when no one else did) Smile
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#22 - 2012-01-30 18:23:51 UTC
Null themed overbuff. Oh come on, is it really that bad? Just because I can tank a Ferox, 2 Stabber Fleets, Vexor Navy, and a Claw with my Harpy.. its not so bad is it? Lol

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#23 - 2012-01-30 21:25:08 UTC
i was playing around and came up with this for the harpy

its not soo bad with a blue pill and low grade crystal set...

[Harpy, harpy of doom]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Internal Force Field Array I

Upgraded 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II
Gistii C-Type Small Shield Booster
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II

Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Small Core Defence Operational Solidifier I

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#24 - 2012-01-30 21:55:20 UTC
I thought about going that route with it, but I'm pretty skeptical of the ability to hold that SSB up without a cap booster. Take a look at my Blarpy videos to see just how heavy neuting pressure on a Blarpy can be.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Berendas
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-01-30 22:45:05 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I thought about going that route with it, but I'm pretty skeptical of the ability to hold that SSB up without a cap booster. Take a look at my Blarpy videos to see just how heavy neuting pressure on a Blarpy can be.

-Liang



Watched your vids, the Harpy play is impressive. Also, the new missed shot effect on turrets looked really cool with that Harbinger Pirate
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#26 - 2012-01-30 23:00:03 UTC
Berendas wrote:

Watched your vids, the Harpy play is impressive. Also, the new missed shot effect on turrets looked really cool with that Harbinger Pirate


Gotta admit that I really like the missed shot effect! I ended up minimizing local just so I could end up with more beautiful videos ... for the most part I'm on vent with people that have local up. :P

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#27 - 2012-01-31 02:02:36 UTC
Back to the OP...I think that there's a couple of ways to look at this.

If you are in nullsec and you aren't RR fit, you basically need to toe the line with the kiting MWD stuff in gangs. This may see you get vaped every now and then by alpha shots, but you are more likely to have to suck up ceptors, and GTFO Sabres. The number of people with decent rail and arty fit ships that can gank you before you GTFO is actually usually pretty small. I mean, yes, you might be unlucky to land a AHAC sniper zealot blob but AB won't save you anyway.

If you are fitting for the RR AF doctrine, then you need AB for the sig tanking. No way out of it. You just have to get a good warpin on BC's or similar and its all gravy. You'll struggle with ceptors and so on, but you can tank them till they get bored.

In lowsec for solo work it will depend on your strategy how you fit it - and on how good an AF pilot you are. You won't be doing much fighting on gates unless its to bait aggro, and in this case you'll want an AB so that they won't lock you up before you are back within jump range...and if they do, you'll survive the DPS that actually lands on you. Its not likely a thrasher will be trying to insta you under gate guns (unless he's suicidal).

Hisec, you probably want a MWD or dual prop just because you'll either be trying to munch mission runners in their missions, or trying to escape some dude who has 65 guardians backing him up. If you are fighting on undock, you really don't need MWD, you need your head looked at.

For wormholes, AB fit, the whole way. You'll be either getting a warp at zero with sleepers on the field (often) and need the low sig to survive the latter and no need to motor 40km @ 1.5km/s to your victim, or you'll be within 5km of a wormhole.

So, TL;DR version: I DUNNO!!!

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#28 - 2012-01-31 02:14:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahrieman
Liang Nuren wrote:
Berendas wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
It looks good on paper, but a vengeance without a web won't apply full rocket damage to other frigates. Other AB frigates will be able to escape at will. And a web/AB Enyo will kill you every time. No frigate tank can eat 440 DPS. It is more of a paper rock scissors game. The perfect fit will be elusive.



Yeah, that's my worry. Dedicating a slot to a cap booster basically ensures that you can never lock down another frigate. The more I think about it, the better the Hawk looks What?


I must have imagined killing all those frig and AFs with my no-web Harpy.

-Liang


What Liang is neglecting to tell you is that with proper ammo selection and manual flying, a web is unnecessary to kill frigs provided that you lay down the deeps fast and hard. If you just try to orbit at optimal and activate guns, then a web prob is a good idea.

Remember: Fast and Hard

Solo Rifter since 2009
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#29 - 2012-01-31 03:07:32 UTC
Ahrieman wrote:
Remember: Fast and Hard


That's what she said

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#30 - 2012-01-31 04:20:53 UTC
The OP is interested in a Vengeance. They tend to need a web. With range control you can pin high DPS turret boats such as the Wolf or Enyo at 7-9km. This effectively limits their DPS. The highest DPS examples might get 200 DPS at that range.

I would recommend geting a faction/complex nos. Their range is greated then a nuet's. You can live off your opponent's cap without worrying about being in nuet range. The Corpii A-type nos is only 23 million isk and has a range of 10.2km. The C-type is 13 million isk and has a 8.6km range.

Example
High -
Rocket II x 4
Corpii A-Type nos
Mid-
AB II
Named Scrambler
Named Webifier
Low-
DC II
SAR II
BCU II
Adaptive Nano II
Rigs -
Auxilliary nano pump x 2

So in short at 8km - 129 DPS cap stable. Your 178 DPS vs. their 200 DPS. You both start at 8k EHP, but they can't rep. You win.
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#31 - 2012-02-03 20:43:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
Trinkets friend wrote:
Back to the OP...I think that there's a couple of ways to look at this.

If you are in nullsec and you aren't RR fit, you basically need to toe the line with the kiting MWD stuff in gangs. This may see you get vaped every now and then by alpha shots, but you are more likely to have to suck up ceptors, and GTFO Sabres. The number of people with decent rail and arty fit ships that can gank you before you GTFO is actually usually pretty small. I mean, yes, you might be unlucky to land a AHAC sniper zealot blob but AB won't save you anyway.

If you are fitting for the RR AF doctrine, then you need AB for the sig tanking. No way out of it. You just have to get a good warpin on BC's or similar and its all gravy. You'll struggle with ceptors and so on, but you can tank them till they get bored.

In lowsec for solo work it will depend on your strategy how you fit it - and on how good an AF pilot you are. You won't be doing much fighting on gates unless its to bait aggro, and in this case you'll want an AB so that they won't lock you up before you are back within jump range...and if they do, you'll survive the DPS that actually lands on you. Its not likely a thrasher will be trying to insta you under gate guns (unless he's suicidal).

Hisec, you probably want a MWD or dual prop just because you'll either be trying to munch mission runners in their missions, or trying to escape some dude who has 65 guardians backing him up. If you are fighting on undock, you really don't need MWD, you need your head looked at.

For wormholes, AB fit, the whole way. You'll be either getting a warp at zero with sleepers on the field (often) and need the low sig to survive the latter and no need to motor 40km @ 1.5km/s to your victim, or you'll be within 5km of a wormhole.

So, TL;DR version: I DUNNO!!!


I was in my Ishkur yesterday with an AB, scram, and cap booster in mid slots. I had a coercer chasing me who I knew was using t2 medium pulse lasers. I looked up his fit on BC. He kept trying to land at his optimal and started pounding me with his lasers at 20KM or so.

With an AB, I wasn't confident that I could get under his guns before I would pop. So I bailed. I couldn't help but think if I had a MWD that I could easily go in real fast, set orbit at 2500, and blast away. He had no tank as he was using 2-3 TEs and a heat sink in his low slot.

Do you think I could've closed that 20KM distance and get under his guns with my repper and AB? What's the optimal on his guns? I don't fly Amarr ships so I wouldn't know.

Edit: BC said he 1 or 2 fits in regards to his high slots. It was either all medium pulse lasers or 5-6 medium pulse lasers and 2-3 dual light lasers. I guess he was hedging

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Berendas
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-02-03 23:57:33 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:


I was in my Ishkur yesterday with an AB, scram, and cap booster in mid slots. I had a coercer chasing me who I knew was using t2 medium pulse lasers. I looked up his fit on BC. He kept trying to land at his optimal and started pounding me with his lasers at 20KM or so.

With an AB, I wasn't confident that I could get under his guns before I would pop. So I bailed. I couldn't help but think if I had a MWD that I could easily go in real fast, set orbit at 2500, and blast away. He had no tank as he was using 2-3 TEs and a heat sink in his low slot.

Do you think I could've closed that 20KM distance and get under his guns with my repper and AB? What's the optimal on his guns? I don't fly Amarr ships so I wouldn't know.

Edit: BC said he 1 or 2 fits in regards to his high slots. It was either all medium pulse lasers or 5-6 medium pulse lasers and 2-3 dual light lasers. I guess he was hedging



If he was hitting you at 20km, he would be using Scorch. You could try to close range, but he would pretty easily track you while you moved in. Just before you would get to your own optimal, he probably would have switched to faction Multifrequency, and then he would have a much closer optimal. Trying to close on a Coercer from 20km with an AB frig is a pretty bad idea, I would only try it if you had a flight of EC-300's to break off his damage while you closed in.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#33 - 2012-02-04 00:36:53 UTC
Yeah, coercer is just bad news. It puts out good DPS at all ranges and has fantastic tracking. You aren't likely to survive to get in range with an AB and you aren't likely to be able to outtrack it with a MWD. I don't know whether you can survive approach and outtrack it up close with with an AB (obviously dualprop).

They're just really tough customers with the weakness that they can't actually hold you down.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#34 - 2012-02-04 05:35:36 UTC
Two years ago I lost my DLP Coercer (8-guns, MWD, 3-HS/DCU .. Gank or Bust!) to a DP ishkur with barely a dent made in his armour .. Dessies now have more dps and Ishkur has more tank (+lowslot). Tracking close targets are nigh impossible if the assailant knows to ignore the orbit button.

If he has a MWD (check his speed/agility), I'd say go for it.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#35 - 2012-02-04 07:13:50 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Two years ago I lost my DLP Coercer (8-guns, MWD, 3-HS/DCU .. Gank or Bust!) to a DP ishkur with barely a dent made in his armour .. Dessies now have more dps and Ishkur has more tank (+lowslot). Tracking close targets are nigh impossible if the assailant knows to ignore the orbit button.

If he has a MWD (check his speed/agility), I'd say go for it.


I put that coercer into EFT and I like it. As for tracking - throw three energy mestasis rigs on. Your tracking goes from .5133 to .7243.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#36 - 2012-02-04 09:35:05 UTC
Heh, originally started using it to simplify shopping runs but it became my standard fit after it tore through a 400 plate auto-Trash and I outdamaged shield/gank Ruppies on larger targets .. generally use twin metastasis and one locus though .. fun to fly and very effective as a dps platform (which is what the Coercer is with just 1 mid).
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-02-04 18:52:36 UTC
With the new passive bonus the mwd fit should speed tank better as long as you keep high speed.
You should choose the AB only when you need the cap or scram immunity.
Berendas
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-02-04 19:15:41 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
With the new passive bonus the mwd fit should speed tank better as long as you keep high speed.
You should choose the AB only when you need the cap or scram immunity.



It seems like most of the time AF's are up against other frig hulls or the odd cruiser. In both cases I think scram immunity is huge, although I only PVP in low sec now. It's very possible MWD AF's are big in high sec and 0.0 as heavy tacklers or something else.
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